flaps again

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
and found the flaps were confusing the issue
when the students were learning landings. I opted to do most of them
flapless and this porved quite productive. the problem was, none of
the other instructors were teaching this and it was off the page for
the school, so I kept it to a minimum.

It is amazing how attitudes change over time and how certain flying
procedures become part of our culture.

If I recall correctly, it was some time back in the 70's when some FAA
bureaucrat made a PTS change decreeing that a normal landing was to be with full
flaps. Before that, flap use was taught as something that was much more at the
pilot's option. The change caused quite a furor at the time. Some instructors
thought that full flap landings were much too advanced for mere student pilots!

Vaughn

Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps
failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a
PA-28) and refuse to move it :-)

That's what the proverbial D-cell flash light is for (preferably a
mag-lite).

Dudley wrote:
No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another
procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no flap
landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a no
flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as
required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over
the aspects of no flap landings with every student.
I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the student
must be completely familiar with before solo.

I was in the pattern at night with a student in a C172 at RHV and we had a
total electrical failure. No lights, no flaps, ... I had him hold a
flashlight at the ASI and call out airspeeds, I then did a glassy water
landing - worked perfectly!

Hilton

Hilton wrote:
Dudley wrote:
No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another
procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no flap
landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a no
flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as
required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over
the aspects of no flap landings with every student.
I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the student
must be completely familiar with before solo.

I was in the pattern at night with a student in a C172 at RHV and we had a
total electrical failure. No lights, no flaps, ... I had him hold a
flashlight at the ASI and call out airspeeds, I then did a glassy water
landing - worked perfectly!

Hilton


I can't resist this so forgive me :-))

......and all this after staying at a Hilton and not a Holiday Inn
Express last night? :-))))))))))))))))))))))))

--
Dudley Henriques

B A R R Y wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

That is amazing. The only emergency associated with flaps is asymmetric
deployment! :-)

Matt

Dudley Henriques wrote:
Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which
would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.



Exactly!

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))


Yes, especially when on one of those dangerous grass strips! :-)

Matt

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 14:51:57 -0800 (PST), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

I've often met pilots who use no flaps on landing in very gusty
conditions or stiff crosswinds. I've tried this and don't really see
the benifits. Like a lot of things it's probably mostly in the head. I
think the higher touchdown speeds invovlved and the resultant float
only prolong the agony.

Flying a short-bodied Mooney, I would agree 100% with that comment.

I use full flaps for most landings. If the crosswinds or gusts are such
that I could not use the chosen runway, I have an alternate plan in mind.

The higher touchdown speed, and longer runway required landing with 0 flaps
versus 1/2 flaps versus full flaps is significant in my airplane, but does
not and should not present any kind of control issue.

I've used 0 flaps once out of necessity (landing with an iced up airplane
after getting into unforecast icing conditions); and I use 1/2 flaps
landing out of a CATII approach to minimums. Otherwise its full flaps.
--ron

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

I can't resist this so forgive me :-))

.....and all this after staying at a Hilton and not a Holiday Inn
Express last night? :-))))))))))))))))))))))))

Tacky, really tacky lol


--

"Hilton" wrote:

I was in the pattern at night with a student in a C172 at RHV and we had a
total electrical failure. No lights, no flaps, ... I had him hold a
flashlight at the ASI and call out airspeeds, I then did a glassy water
landing - worked perfectly!

I'm confused -- if he was your student, why did you do the landing? Seems
like a perfect opportunity for a "learning experience".

Hilton wrote:
Dudley wrote:
No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another
procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no flap
landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a no
flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as
required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over
the aspects of no flap landings with every student.
I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the student
must be completely familiar with before solo.

I was in the pattern at night with a student in a C172 at RHV and we had a
total electrical failure. No lights, no flaps, ... I had him hold a
flashlight at the ASI and call out airspeeds, I then did a glassy water
landing - worked perfectly!

I had a complete electrical failure in a C177RG at night on the way from
Duluth to Minneapolis back in 2003. Not wanting to fly into either the
Class B or the Mode C veil without radio contact, I elected to put down
at an uncontrolled field north of the Cities. A buddy was flying a 182
on the same trip a mile or so ahead of me, so I got him on my handheld
and told him the plan. He went in ahead of me, assuring the
pilot-controlled runway lights got turned on and handling any radio
comms that might be needed if any other traffic showed up, while I
circled to make sure I got the gear down. Took a bit of pumping to get
it locked - it was reassuring that the tiny amount of remaining power
was enough to get a green light when it locked. So then it was just a
matter of landing NORDO, no lights, no flaps, in the dark. What fun! I
was sure glad I had practiced all of those, albeit not all at once.

My buddy was waiting on the ramp and said the only thing he saw as I
came in was the runway edge lights blinking out as I rolled past them.