The nature of military justice.

From: "John R Weiss"
Date: 1/8/2004 9:58 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: GFpLb.2928$5V2.7078@attbi_s53

From one who has had a bit of experience (Senior Member of a General Court
Martial in a rape case; and having had a "joint" tour in an AF [ATC] command
where an E-4 who was an RCH from an Article 15 for repeated UAs got an
end-of-tour AFCM just a few months later)...

When I was assigned to the GCM, I had NO contact with the convening authority
from beginning to end, other than the letter telling me I was "it." I had NO
IDEA whether he "wanted" the accused found innocent or guilty; nor did I
care.
The person with the MOST influence over the GCM Board is the Military Judge
who
presides over the proceedings. His official instructions are VERY
influential,
and his handling of and answers to inquiries and questions from the Board can
make a significant difference.

The accused was an E-4. IIRC, there were an E-5 and E-7 on the Board, as
well
as 3 officers. none of us had any ulterior motives.



I yield to your experience.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On 08 Jan 2004 20:08:49 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: nt (Krztalizer)
Date: 1/8/04 11:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

GMAFB!!! Art, when did you get out of the military? Would you admit
that things change in fifty years? Hell, the UCMJ was written long
after the Articles of War!

Ed, it may or may not be a comfort to you, but I for one feel that you have a
far closer and realistic assessment of the military justice system and how it
works these days than does Art. Art is a man of endless and unforgettable
anecdotal experiences regarding WWII. He writes well and if you want to learn
about how things were in his outfit at the time, you could profit from investing
time in reading his stuff.

Unfortunately, he is also a man whose biases and prejudices are set in stone and
not amenable to alteration by logic or anything else. I came to that conclusion
after numerous fruitless exchanges with him on an assortment of subjects. I
came to realize that, if I wished to retain what little sanity I had left, I
needed to discontinue communicating with him. I did so some time ago, and
haven't noticed any appreciable diminution of my quality of life as a result.

Since he is constitutionally unable to admit any wrongdoing, failing or error on
his part, your efforts to enlighten him are pretty much doomed to failure. If
you can achieve success where I only tasted failure, I would happily concede
that you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din (with due apologies to Kipling).
Unfortunately, I think you're wasting your time, but good luck, anyway.

George Z.

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
As I told Ed, if a
General wants a court marshal to come out a certain way, that is the way
it
will damn well come out. Articles of war or UCMJ.

And I suppose you've got some modern direct experience or evidence to prove
this contention? Pony it up.

"B2431" wrote

LOCs and LORs are corrective tools, not nonjudicial punishment.

Correct, but still steps along the way.

Pete

There was a transcript of the proceedings. There was arguably a
statement by the witness provided in disclosure that should have
indicated the expected testimony. Your attorney did not serve you
well, you have grounds for appeal, and you should (if you ever want to
readdress this) consult a civilian counsel.

Ed, the encounter with the CDR immediately prior to the board took place in the
passageway right outside the hearing - the only transcript was from the board
itself so there was no way to redress the incident. I put myself in front of
the cannon and lit the fuse - this guy just poured extra powder down my shorts.
Life lesson for sure and if nothing else, I learned a lot about human nature.

v/r
Gordon

"ArtKramr" wrote...

The person with the MOST influence over the GCM Board is the Military Judge
who presides over the proceedings

His official instructions are VERY influential,

And no one knows what instructions he was given before the trail began and by
whom They donlt have to influence you. They only have to influence him and
you
would never know the difference.

Again, in this case, I doubt it could have happened. The judge was from another
base, another air wing, another chain of command (didn't converge until
COMNAVAIRPAC, and I doubt he was worried about influencing a judge about an E5's
Court Martial). Most of what he read in his instructions was directly from the
Manual for Courts Martial and another manual.

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 1/8/04 7:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 1/8/04 5:59 PM Pa

f the then MACV CG to hang these guys,
they were subsequently acquitted (another nail in Art's, "If the
General
wants them convicted, they will be convicted" crap).


An example of one hardly proves a damn thing.

Then offer up the opposing examples--got any? Any at all?

Brooks


Yeah. Private Slovak

Quoting from a previous Art Kramer post:

"An example of one hardly proves a damn thing."

Terrible thing to be hoist on ones own petard, isn't it?

ubject: The nature of military justice.
From: "Ragnar"
Date: 1/9/04 1:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 1/8/04 7:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 1/8/04 5:59 PM Pa

f the then MACV CG to hang these guys,
they were subsequently acquitted (another nail in Art's, "If the
General
wants them convicted, they will be convicted" crap).


An example of one hardly proves a damn thing.

Then offer up the opposing examples--got any? Any at all?

Brooks


Yeah. Private Slovak

Quoting from a previous Art Kramer post:

"An example of one hardly proves a damn thing."

Terrible thing to be hoist on ones own petard, isn't it?



He asked for one example, He got one example. Terrible when you get just what
you ask for isn't it?.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: "John R Weiss"
Date: 1/9/04 11:43 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: pvDLb.8707$xy6.20464@attbi_s02

"ArtKramr" wrote...

The person with the MOST influence over the GCM Board is the Military Judge
who presides over the proceedings

His official instructions are VERY influential,

And no one knows what instructions he was given before the trail began and
by
whom They donlt have to influence you. They only have to influence him and
you
would never know the difference.

Again, in this case, I doubt it could have happened. The judge was from
another
base, another air wing, another chain of command (didn't converge until
COMNAVAIRPAC, and I doubt he was worried about influencing a judge about an
E5's
Court Martial). Most of what he read in his instructions was directly from
the
Manual for Courts Martial and another manual.



Yes. We should always doubt.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ubject: The nature of military justice.
From: nt (Krztalizer)
Date: 1/9/04 10:54 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

There was a transcript of the proceedings. There was arguably a
statement by the witness provided in disclosure that should have
indicated the expected testimony. Your attorney did not serve you
well, you have grounds for appeal, and you should (if you ever want to
readdress this) consult a civilian counsel.

Ed, the encounter with the CDR immediately prior to the board took place in
the
passageway right outside the hearing - the only transcript was from the board
itself so there was no way to redress the incident. I put myself in front
of
the cannon and lit the fuse - this guy just poured extra powder down my
shorts.
Life lesson for sure and if nothing else, I learned a lot about human
nature.

v/r
Gordon

And military justice.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer