leading edge flaps

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
newsP5Mb.20608$5V2.33682@attbi_s53...
"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

Exactly where would I find a
reference to "a spoiler flap in a speedbrake configuration," and in
what
context?

Look it up in CFR14, it is a required data element for digital flight
data
recorders.

Nope. Not a single one.

Try again, Johnny.

If you can't even look up the DFDR anex in a searchable version of CFR-14,
why are you bothering to post? Besides that, I already made my point.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:cS5Mb.19776$Rc4.81757@attbi_s54...
"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

Exactly where would I find a
reference to "a spoiler flap in a speedbrake configuration," and in
what
context?

Also, I just looked through 14CFR Part 121 -- including 121.343,
121.344, and
Appendices B and M (the FAA standards for Flight Recorder and DFDR
operational
parameters) -- and found absolutely no reference to "spoiler flaps" in
ANYconfiguration.

Or even "spoiler". Although, anyone familiar with aerodynamic surfaces
could use the full nomenclature for the fixed spoiler, or the spoiler
flap.

Nope.

14CFR Part 121 (as cited above) has references to "Ground spoiler" and
"spoilers" and "spoiler", but NONE to "fixed spoiler" or "spoiler flap".


None of that changes the fact that a fixed spoiler is different from a
spoiler flap. Just as a kreuger flap is different from a fowler flap.

"John Carrier" wrote in message
...
Slats are typically UN-powered devices on the leading edge that extend
simply by the reduced dynamic pressure against them as airspeed slows.
Example would be the leading edge extensions of the F-86 and F-100.

I wouldn't agree with "typically." Aero slats also extend when a certain
AOA is achieved ... the A-4 slats would extend at approximately 12 units
AOA
(IIRC) and bringing them out symmetrically at higher airspeeds was not a
sure thing.

Grumman liked powered slats. Both the A-6 and F-14 had them.

Unlike otherers ego driven operators here, when I corrected John Carrier WRT
the areodynamics of the F-14, he just incorporated the new information into
his explaination. I found that far more impressive than The B-52
discussion, where it took a dozen threads here and in the .sci groups to get
Buff to relent.

Then of course there is Weiss and one has to wonder how smart that boy is.

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On 11 Jan 2004 01:19:53 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

From: Ed Rasimus

Not sure what "roll steering" is.

The only place I have ever seen the terms "roll steering" and "pitch
steering"
was in reference to the bars on an ADI.

Not even there, Dan. The ADI terminology was "bank steering" and
"pitch steering".

That would be because most INSs produse "roll command" and you would not
have "roll steering" in an F-4.

"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
Tarver Engineering wrote:
"John Mullen" wrote in message
...

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:46:52 +0000, John Mullen
wrote:



Not to mention 'splaps', but that's getting a bit technical...

John


I wondered how long it would take. Mere minutes...

Heh heh!

And yet, all Mullen did was demonstrate his own ignorance.

You have to love the irony.

You do, don't you!

Yes. It is quite pleasant laughing at you Mullen. I'm sure the readers of
my kook "catch and release" program are quite impressed with your ignorance.

The F-4C, D and hardwing E had leading edge flaps, the E (post 556) and
subsequent models F,G, S had powered slats. The Thunderbirds used hardwing
E-models, probably for the reasons you stated. Also had no radar and added
VHF radios, but we weren't talking about that.

I once had an asymmetric leading edge flap extension in a C model. Rolled
inverted faster than I ever had. Pilot was cool and unloaded and used a
whole bunch of rudder to regain control.

--
Les
F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret)


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
k.net...


The Blues bolted 'um shut. Can you imagine what would happen in a tight
diamond with an A4 if a wing position got an asymmetrical slat extension
with roll induced....say in a barrel roll? Not a pretty thought!! :-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: "John R Weiss"
Date: 1/11/2004 12:15 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: cS5Mb.19776$Rc4.81757@attbi_s54

"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

Exactly where would I find a
reference to "a spoiler flap in a speedbrake configuration," and in
what
context?

Also, I just looked through 14CFR Part 121 -- including 121.343,
121.344,
and
Appendices B and M (the FAA standards for Flight Recorder and DFDR
operational
parameters) -- and found absolutely no reference to "spoiler flaps"
in
ANYconfiguration.

Or even "spoiler". Although, anyone familiar with aerodynamic surfaces
could use the full nomenclature for the fixed spoiler, or the spoiler
flap.

Nope.

14CFR Part 121 (as cited above) has references to "Ground spoiler" and
"spoilers" and "spoiler", but NONE to "fixed spoiler" or "spoiler flap".

The ONLY such "full nomenclature" yet discovered is in the Tarverisms.

We're still waiting for a credible citation...


It occurs to me that a "fixed spoiler" would be immobile and thus provide
nothing of value and should be removed.

Lots of autos have spoilers, as they push down on the rear for more rear
wheel loading. some formula one style racers have computer controlled
spoilers they call "spoiler flaps", so as to differentiate from a fixed
spoiler.

So, I used the complete name of a control surface and got trolled by a kook
757 FO. Here today we have Dan, parroting a kook.

The Blues bolted 'um shut. Can you imagine what would happen in a tight
diamond with an A4 if a wing position got an asymmetrical slat extension
with roll induced....say in a barrel roll? Not a pretty thought!! :-))

Also bolted shut when the A-4E/F (AKA Mongoose) was used as adversary for
F-8 and F-4. Then unbolted when the Turkey showed the necessity of better
slow speed capability.

John X

If they extend when airpressure is reduced as airspeed slows, then it
would be redundant to add "also when a certain AOA is achieved"
because that is the inevitable, inexorable, undeniable result of
slowing.

I was thinking of maneuvering. The A-4 slat would extend up to around
350KIAS once the proper AOA was achieved ... hardly slow. I suspect the
various NA products behaved similarly.

R / John

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:50:00 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .
On 11 Jan 2004 01:19:53 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

From: Ed Rasimus

Not sure what "roll steering" is.

The only place I have ever seen the terms "roll steering" and "pitch
steering"
was in reference to the bars on an ADI.

Not even there, Dan. The ADI terminology was "bank steering" and
"pitch steering".

That would be because most INSs produse "roll command" and you would not
have "roll steering" in an F-4.


Dan's post refers to the nomenclature for the Attitude Director
Indicator. The two bars, one horizontal and one vertical, provide cues
for flying instruments, similar to the "bug" in more current displays.
They can offer commands related to navigation guidance such as turns
to headings or cues for flying ILS approaches or even be linked to
weapons release computers for fly up for lofted weapons deliveries.

The vertical bar on the display was called the bank steering bar
because it displaced left or right of center and when the proper
amount of bank was initiated, it returned to center. When your course
change was complete it displaced the opposite direction to return you
to wings level flight.

The horizontal bar was termed the pitch steering bar and it commanded
pitch inputs to achieve the proper climb or dive angles.

The nomenclature has nothing to do with the Inertial Navigation
system. The ADI is not specific to the F-4, but is the generic
attitude indicator display and was the same in the F-105, F-4, and
T-38, as well as a a number of other US aircraft which I don't have
several thousand hours in.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8