An Officer.......

Subject: An Officer.......
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 2/24/04 7:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:


My purpose in posting this material is to share history with the NG. This is
the way we were trained in 1943. These were ideas that were drilled into
us.
Arguing the point doesn't change history. It changes nothing and is
pointless.
What I have gotten for sharing history are flames. arguments and insults.
Not a
thank you in sight. But I must admit it gives me a lot to think about.


Arthur Kramer

But the way that you wrote your 'officer's rules' made it appear
that you consider them appropriate now as well. You hopefully
realize that they're very much not the best way to lead troops I
hope. It seems strange that they'd appear appropriate even then
actually, WW2 wasn't in the dark ages after all.
--

-Gord.


I am simply reporting how it was in Cadet school in 1943. It isshow we were
trained. And for good reason. Let us siuppose we are West Point and a cadet
officer is marching a platoon of cadets across the parade ground. The CO is
watching. The cadet officer calls out. "To the right flank HARCH!" Instead of
doing a right flank motion, they all stop and say ," Sir can't we talk about
this? We have a better idea". I don't think so. Do you?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

The cadet officer calls out. "To the right flank HARCH!" Instead of
doing a right flank motion, they all stop and say ," Sir can't we talk about
this? We have a better idea". I don't think so. Do you?

During the wars I served in, the only marching maneuver we used
was the straggle march, and the firing retreat.

Marching has very little to do with leadership, and everything to do
with indoctrination. The drill Sgt's main task is to remove all
individuality, and make the men operate as a team. Marching is
the quickest way in Basic training to remove individuality, and it's
kind of neat to watch how peer pressure makes the Sgt's job
even easier. While he can threaten 50 push-ups for screwing-up,
the peer pressure can/does cause a lot of fist fights between the
soldiers. It takes about 2 weeks to indoctrinate civilians, and then
you can teach them how to kill more efficiently in "mass" exercises.

Subject: An Officer.......
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 2/24/04 9:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: wxW_b.5646$m4.2088@okepread03

"ArtKramr" wrote

The cadet officer calls out. "To the right flank HARCH!" Instead of
doing a right flank motion, they all stop and say ," Sir can't we talk
about
this? We have a better idea". I don't think so. Do you?

During the wars I served in, the only marching maneuver we used
was the straggle march, and the firing retreat.

Marching has very little to do with leadership, and everything to do
with indoctrination. The drill Sgt's main task is to remove all
individuality, and make the men operate as a team. Marching is
the quickest way in Basic training to remove individuality, and it's
kind of neat to watch how peer pressure makes the Sgt's job
even easier. While he can threaten 50 push-ups for screwing-up,
the peer pressure can/does cause a lot of fist fights between the
soldiers. It takes about 2 weeks to indoctrinate civilians, and then
you can teach them how to kill more efficiently in "mass" exercises.




Let me give you another example. We show up at our plane before a mission. I do
the mandatory pre-flight inspection and find that the arming wires in the bomb
bay are poorly isntalled. I turn to one of the gunners and say, "Sgt. Get in
that jeep and go to the ammo dump and get an ordnance man our here to
reinstall these arming wires properly." He says," I don't know sir, they don't
look all that bad to me.. And it is a long way to the dump.And those ordnance
guys really get ****ed if you bug them like that. Why don't we just fly the
mission. It will probably be OK".

Now that never happened. But if it did that gunner wouild be removed from our
crew. We wouldn't have him fly with us on Willie the Wolf. He would probably be
removed form the base never to be seen again. And when you inquired about what
happened to him, no one would seem to know. What do you think happened to him?
Any idea?

Want some more examples?

..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

Want some more examples?

No. I vote we let this thread die in peace...

Let me give you another example. We show up at our plane before a mission. I
do
the mandatory pre-flight inspection and find that the arming wires in the
bomb
bay are poorly isntalled. I turn to one of the gunners and say, "Sgt. Get
in
that jeep and go to the ammo dump and get an ordnance man our here to
reinstall these arming wires properly." He says," I don't know sir, they
don't
look all that bad to me.. And it is a long way to the dump.And those ordnance
guys really get ****ed if you bug them like that. Why don't we just fly the
mission. It will probably be OK".

Now that never happened. But if it did that gunner wouild be removed from
our
crew. We wouldn't have him fly with us on Willie the Wolf. He would probably
be
removed form the base never to be seen again. And when you inquired about
what
happened to him, no one would seem to know. What do you think happened to
him?
Any idea?

Want some more examples?

.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art, you are so damn right. Been there. Done that. Preflight Pensacola. You
are so correct. Sic 'em!

Quent

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
so maybe we knew something back then that the military
has forgotten since.

Yeah, we're in pretty rough shape right now (????).

Let's look at this for a second.
Britannia ruled the waves for how long? Quite some time.
Kind of hard to make the case they do today, is it because
they forgot the Press-Gangs and flogging?

Naa, me neither.
Simply bad ideas that could be forced to work were replaced.
The change in Britannia's rule of the waves was unrelated.

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
I am simply reporting how it was in Cadet school in 1943. It isshow we
were
trained. And for good reason. Let us siuppose we are West Point and a
cadet
officer is marching a platoon of cadets across the parade ground. The CO
is
watching. The cadet officer calls out. "To the right flank HARCH!" Instead
of
doing a right flank motion, they all stop and say ," Sir can't we talk
about
this? We have a better idea". I don't think so. Do you?

Art, please don't act stupid.
There is one hell of a difference between informing your men what is going
on and why.
It helps, when men follow you because they are confident in your ability ,
not out of idle curiosity.

Subject: An Officer.......
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 2/24/04 10:29 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: fhX_b.5649$m4.4917@okepread03

"ArtKramr" wrote

Want some more examples?

No. I vote we let this thread die in peace...


The better part of valor


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: An Officer.......
From: (QDurham)
Date: 2/24/04 10:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Let me give you another example. We show up at our plane before a mission. I
do
the mandatory pre-flight inspection and find that the arming wires in the
bomb
bay are poorly isntalled. I turn to one of the gunners and say, "Sgt. Get
in
that jeep and go to the ammo dump and get an ordnance man our here to
reinstall these arming wires properly." He says," I don't know sir, they
don't
look all that bad to me.. And it is a long way to the dump.And those
ordnance
guys really get ****ed if you bug them like that. Why don't we just fly the
mission. It will probably be OK".

Now that never happened. But if it did that gunner wouild be removed from
our
crew. We wouldn't have him fly with us on Willie the Wolf. He would probably
be
removed form the base never to be seen again. And when you inquired about
what
happened to him, no one would seem to know. What do you think happened to
him?
Any idea?

Want some more examples?

.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art, you are so damn right. Been there. Done that. Preflight Pensacola.
You
are so correct. Sic 'em!

Quent



On our crew any order given by our pilot was immediately carried out without
question. He was a good pilot and a good leader and knew what he was doing.
There were times when we came home from missions with battle damage and S/Sgt
Greigo engineer giunner (tail) would be up all night working with the crew
chief on the repairs. In the morning we would ask Greigo if Willie was ok. If
he said no, we wouldn't fly her no matter what the crew chief said. If he gave
us a thumbs up we would haveWillie in the air that day. So we worked together
as a crew. But no member of our crew ever once did anything less than follow
orders as they were given. It was the way we were trained and it was the way we
flew. And we did it with pride and professionalism.

"John Keeney" wrote in message
...

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
so maybe we knew something back then that the military
has forgotten since.

Yeah, we're in pretty rough shape right now (????).

Let's look at this for a second.
Britannia ruled the waves for how long? Quite some time.
Kind of hard to make the case they do today, is it because
they forgot the Press-Gangs and flogging?

Naa, me neither.
Simply bad ideas that could be forced to work were replaced.
The change in Britannia's rule of the waves was unrelated.


In fact the RN expected both officers and enlisted men to show
rather more initiative than was common for the period. Come
to that there was a greater degree of social mobility than
was normal as well. James Cook , the son of a farm laborer
joined the RN in 1755 as an ordinary seaman. Within 4 years
he had been promoted to Master and by 1763 he had been
commissioned and given his own command.

Keith