Dear Mary...

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...
Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:21:33 GMT, a stranger
called by some "Steven P. McNicoll"
came forth and told this tale in us.military.army


"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
.. .

Since marriage does grant rights, it is unconstitutional to deny those
rights without due process of law (14th Amendment, Section 1) Here in
California, Article I, Section 31 of the State Constitution forbids
discrimination in public contracts, which includes marriage.

Who is being denied marriage?

Same-sex couples.

I suppose this has been answered earlier in the thread, but, if
you don't mind me asking, why would 'same-sex couples' want to get
married anyway ??

Pensions ? Keeping the house when a partner died...?? What ??
Is it a legal thing, or a religious thing ??

Just wondering.....

--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing

"Jez" wrote in message
...

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...
Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:21:33 GMT, a stranger
called by some "Steven P. McNicoll"
came forth and told this tale in us.military.army


"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
.. .

Since marriage does grant rights, it is unconstitutional to deny
those
rights without due process of law (14th Amendment, Section 1) Here
in
California, Article I, Section 31 of the State Constitution forbids
discrimination in public contracts, which includes marriage.

Who is being denied marriage?

Same-sex couples.

I suppose this has been answered earlier in the thread, but, if
you don't mind me asking, why would 'same-sex couples' want to get
married anyway ??

Pensions ? Keeping the house when a partner died...?? What ??
Is it a legal thing, or a religious thing ??

Just wondering.....

This is speculation on my part, since I'm heterosexual, but I think that
things like being able to cover each other on health insurance, social
security benefits, the ability to file income tax jointly, being able to sit
with each other in the intensive care unit, bereavement leave, FMLA rights
to care for a sick spouse or spouses children, ability to make medical
decisions for a sick spouse, immigration access for spouses, spousal
privilege in lawsuits, and so forth would matter just as much to gay couples
as straight couples.

" wrote in message
ink.net...
"la n." wrote in message

" wrote in
message

link.net..
.
snip
It probably makes you devout in your beliefs. Within my
own
religion I must oppose any acceptance of such a union as
being contrary to it's system of beliefs, tenets and
religious laws. However, in the US my religion and
yours
are not the only ones that are followed by the many and
diverse peoples of this country and I don't feel that it
is
mine to judge them. Also, in terms of the socio-economic
and civil institutions of marriage before the civil
authorities of the land, such an issue must be addressed
and
if the civil authorities of the land wish to recognize
that
such couples have the same rights, priviledges, duties
and
obligations as any other marriage under those civil
authorities it is simply, to quote an oft used part of
the
New Testament, used in justifying murder in the name of
the
state, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and
render
unto God that which is God's". Now in my own faith, such
a
use of the word god as if it were the proper name of he
who
cannot be named would be as bad or perhaps worse
(depending
upon the argument of the relative "badness" of this act)
than a same sex marriage. :-)

Live and let live I say. Perhaps it is because I
made/make
my living enforcing the will of one group of people over
another and sometimes see that my side is not always in
the
absolute right and that sometimes there is no "right" in
such situations I try to allow for that which is
different
from my own ways so long as it does not harm others.


I agree with you, Snark, but that's easy .... coz I live
in
Canada where same sex marriage is permitted ...

Furthermore, if one wanted to take the Bible literally
to the word, we would be mandated to call upon the
death of homosexuals:

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he
lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an
abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their
blood shall be upon them.

Now, does the government really want to get involved
in *that* nasty business?


All governments do get involved in *that* nasty business.
In fact one of the parts of my job is to commit murder and
assault upon people as my government may direct.
Governments decide which murders are characterized as
criminal and which are not. Ultimately, I believe I _will_
answer to god for my part in them and will stand before him
unbowed as those were and are my acts for which I am
responsible and felt were necessary at the time.

What god will determine thereafter is up to god.


Well, the "nasty business" I'm talking about is the
Scriptural mandate of killing homosexuals. If your
government mandated you to do that, you would
follow orders???!!!!! Would your conscience
allow that????

Speaking of your government, here's a little
something that came in the mail to me:

In Defense of Biblical Marriage

The Presidential Prayer Team is currently urging us to: "Pray
for the President as he seeks wisdom on how to legally codify
the definition of marriage. Pray that it will be according to Biblical
principles. With any forces insisting on variant definitions of
marriage, pray that God's Word and His standards will be honored
by our government." This is true.

Any good religious person believes prayer should be balanced
by action. So here, in support of the Prayer Team's admirable goals,
is a proposed Constitutional Amendment codifying marriage entirely
on biblical principles:

A. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between
one man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)

B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines,
in addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II
Chron 11:21)

C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin.
If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut 22:13-21)

D. Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be forbidden.
(Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)

E. Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the
constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be construed
to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)

F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the
widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does
not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe, and be otherwise
punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen. 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

G. In lieu of marriage, if there are no acceptable men in your town,
it is required that you get your dad drunk and have sex with him
(even if he had previously offered you up as a sex toy to men young
and old), tag-teaming with any sisters you may have. Of course, this rule
applies only if you are female. (Gen 19:31-36)

-- nilita

"Joy" wrote in message
...
Just wondering.....

This is speculation on my part, since I'm heterosexual, but I think that
things like being able to cover each other on health insurance, social
security benefits, the ability to file income tax jointly, being able to
sit
with each other in the intensive care unit, bereavement leave, FMLA rights
to care for a sick spouse or spouses children, ability to make medical
decisions for a sick spouse, immigration access for spouses, spousal
privilege in lawsuits, and so forth would matter just as much to gay
couples
as straight couples.

Don't forget that all important inheritance tax (AKA death tax). A person
can leave unlimited assets to their spouse and no taxes would be owing. But
if you are not married, the tax kicks in on estates just over $1 million
which when you think about it is not all that large an amount. Almost anyone
who starts out saving at a young age, saves modestly and invests in common
stocks can accumulate that much in a few decades. The tax rates can go as
high as 55%. Many gay people has substantial assets and marriage would
protect them from the tax man. The inheritance tax is supposedly semi
repealed but for now it is in force.
--
Ajax Telamon
"No profession or occupation is more
pleasing than the military; a profession
or exercise both noble in execution
and noble in its cause. No utility either
more just or universal than the
protection of the repose or defence
of the greatness of one's country.
The company and daily conversation
of so many noble, young and active
men cannot but be well-pleasing to you."

Michel de Montaigne (1588)

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...

Same-sex couples.


You can't be denied something that does not exist.


Wrong. over 3,100 people have been married.


No, they just think they've been married.



Not one of thiose unions
has been successfully challenged. In four different hearings judges
have refused to stop the marriages from occuring.


Marriages cannot occur between persons of the same sex regardless what
judges do or say.

"Joy" wrote in message
...


I suppose this has been answered earlier in the thread, but, if
you don't mind me asking, why would 'same-sex couples' want to get
married anyway ??

Pensions ? Keeping the house when a partner died...?? What ??
Is it a legal thing, or a religious thing ??

Just wondering.....

This is speculation on my part, since I'm heterosexual, but I think that
things like being able to cover each other on health insurance, social
security benefits, the ability to file income tax jointly, being able to
sit
with each other in the intensive care unit, bereavement leave, FMLA rights
to care for a sick spouse or spouses children, ability to make medical
decisions for a sick spouse, immigration access for spouses, spousal
privilege in lawsuits, and so forth would matter just as much to gay
couples
as straight couples.

Those seem to me like perfectly valid reasons.

Thanks.

--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing

"Ajax Telamon" wrote in message
...

"Joy" wrote in message
...
Just wondering.....

This is speculation on my part, since I'm heterosexual, but I think that
things like being able to cover each other on health insurance, social
security benefits, the ability to file income tax jointly, being able to
sit
with each other in the intensive care unit, bereavement leave, FMLA
rights
to care for a sick spouse or spouses children, ability to make medical
decisions for a sick spouse, immigration access for spouses, spousal
privilege in lawsuits, and so forth would matter just as much to gay
couples
as straight couples.

Don't forget that all important inheritance tax (AKA death tax). A person
can leave unlimited assets to their spouse and no taxes would be owing.
But
if you are not married, the tax kicks in on estates just over $1 million
which when you think about it is not all that large an amount. Almost
anyone
who starts out saving at a young age, saves modestly and invests in common
stocks can accumulate that much in a few decades. The tax rates can go as
high as 55%. Many gay people has substantial assets and marriage would
protect them from the tax man. The inheritance tax is supposedly semi
repealed but for now it is in force.

Mmm Good point.
I can see why many (In Government)
would oppose them marrying for those reasons....


--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing

Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:52:52 -0000, a stranger
called by some "Jez" came forth
and told this tale in us.military.army

I suppose this has been answered earlier in the thread, but, if
you don't mind me asking, why would 'same-sex couples' want to get
married anyway ??

Pensions ? Keeping the house when a partner died...?? What ??
Is it a legal thing, or a religious thing ??

Just wondering.....

There are over a thousand legal benefits granted to married couples in
the United States. You've mentioned a couple.

Add in things like the ability to file joint tax returns, automatic
assumption of next-of-kin status, the fact that married couples cannot
be compelled to testify against one another, inheritance, insurance
benefits, etc.. it is a desirable state.

A group in San Francisco did a study a few years back, and figured out
it would take close to $30,000 and dozens of court visits to get even
close to what an $81 marriage license grants. And even then, you
don't get all the benefits.

But all that is secondary. Same-sex couples get married for the same
reason opposite sex couples get married: They are in love, and want
to join their lives. When I proposed to my wife, I didn't phrase it
as a business arrangement, I told her I loved her, and wanted to marry
her.

I wish you all could have seen SF City Hall during the first week of
gay marriages. The place was filled with joy. Couples who had been
together for decades were finally hearing words that had been denied
them. You couldn't find a bouquet in a five mile radius - they had
all been donated to the couples standing in line. A bridal shop took
all their old dresses, and gave them to people waiting in line,
walking down the line shouting "who needs a size 14? size 8? Remember
to pass it along!"

What does marriage mean to gays and lesbians? Thousands of people
slept on the sidewalk during a Pacific storm (heavy rains, high winds,
temps in the low 40s) for the chance to get married. People drove
from Kansas, Texas, even from Georgia because they couldn't get a seat
on a plane. People brought their parents, their kids, their friends.
I saw a SFPD officer and her partner married by the SFPD's chaplain,
with a full honor guard of officers. As each couple existed City
Hall, they held they marriage certificates up like a trophy, and get
cheers from the hundreds lined up along the sidewalks.

It's about love. As is all marriage.
--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail

WE *ARE* UMA
Lemmings 404 Local

Lo, many moons past, on Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:24:59 GMT, a stranger
called by some "Steven P. McNicoll"
came forth and told this tale in us.military.army

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
.. .

Same-sex couples.

You can't be denied something that does not exist.

Marriage exists in the United States. Competant adults who happen to
be gay are denied this civil right.


Wrong. over 3,100 people have been married.

No, they just think they've been married.

No, they ceremonies have been performed, and the certificates, same as
the one my wife and I have, have been issued.

Not one of those unions
has been successfully challenged. In four different hearings judges
have refused to stop the marriages from occuring.

Marriages cannot occur between persons of the same sex regardless what
judges do or say.

Funny, but in this universe judges do have a say on marriage.. or do
you think that it was right for southern states to ban interracial
marriages?

--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail

WE *ARE* UMA
Lemmings 404 Local

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...

Marriage exists in the United States. Competant adults who happen to
be gay are denied this civil right.


Not true. Competent adults who happen to be gay have exactly the same right
to marry a person of the opposite sex that competent adults that are not gay
have.



No, they ceremonies have been performed, and the certificates, same as
the one my wife and I have, have been issued.


Those certificates are not valid.