If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 03:56:47 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:

I was born in 1963. Kind of assinine to feel that I "missed" something
that
was over before I was borne.

Then how do you explain the fascination with WWII aircraft and flight
sims?

I own a lot of books on medieval history. Doesn't mean I have any
desire to participate in the Black Death on a personal level, nor that
I feel I missed out on anything by not dying of pneumonic plague.


Nice insight. While I've worked in biohazard hot labs, I never worked
specifically with Yersinia pestis (cause of plague). Other nasty
things, including some that have been weaponized, yes.

It's a lot better feeling to know that I could recognize plague [1] and
how to treat it. Lots of good what-if stories where an advanced aircraft
gets sent back in time -- fewer about medical supplies and the necessary
knowledge going back.

[1] Or misrecognize it, but it was a confusing enough case that the first
specialist called in at least did a doubletake. I had called for
help, as the on-duty medical tech, because while I knew bubonic
plague was unlikely in my geographic area, as opposed to the American
Southwest where it does show up periodically, this is NOT something
that you guess about.

Turned out that the patient had bad acne, with a number of especially
dark purple pimples. He had just gotten a very bad sunburn with
blisters, and the liquid-filled blisters on top of pimples served
as magnifiers -- they did look somewhat like the characteristic skin
buboes of plague. His fever was due to overheating.

"Presidente Alcazar" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:19:56 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

And you think the "historical" input of a clown who cannot acknowledge
that
the entire national Guard was mobilized and a goodly chunk of them
already
were in the fight when he graduated from high school, and goes on to
lable
those same personnel as "shirkers", has any real value? A guy who makes
the
astonishing claim (repeatedly) that his outfit *never* missed its
designated
target, despite the clear evidence that such results would have been
impossible during that time period? One who disparages the efforts of
those
in his generation who served honorably and went where they were told, and
did what they were instructed to do, as being somehow of less value than
his
own efforts? Sorry, but all of that adds up to a rather biased and
untrustworthy source IMO.

I don't disagree with all of your criticisms - he seems happy enough
to denigrate others and seems to lack the intellectual honesty to
apply the rather intolerant historical standards he applies to others
to himself, but on the other hand, warts and all, his views of his own
experience are important historical information, and should be
preserved.

His personal contribution to WW2 exists independently of all the
ephemeral usenet bitching, even when he is a primary instigator of the
same bitching.

Even his personal stories are suspect when he repeatedly comes out with such
hogwash as "we never missed our target". He has claimed accuracy rivaling
that which is attained by PGM's, and surpassing that acheived by folks like
Ed with their F-105's during the Vietnam conflict. Had that been the case
the B-26 Marauder would have lasted a lot longer in service than it did. No
level bomber (or for that matter dive bomber), or unit of same, of WWII can
claim to have never failed to have hit their target--the USSBS bears that
out.

Brooks


Gavin Bailey

"Tex Houston" wrote in message
...

"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

Most people involved with those activities are trying to relive a
"golden
age" of some sort. WW2 was the last "pure" war, with good and evil
facing
off in a fight to the finish (yes, the Soviets weren't "good", but you
get
the idea). Today's world is largely unsatisfactory to some people, and
instead of working to make it better, they try to relive the past.

Surely you jest. All war is an abomination and there is nothing "pure"
about it. You do what you have to do in a war and move on.


I merely repeat what various commentators and civilians have said. I have
heard WW2 called the "last good war" many times, almost always by people who
don't have degrees in history or who have never been shot at.

"ArtKramr" wrote

As Colin Powell said:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

Only a black man would think like that.

Yea Baby! What was it like when the 32 Ford showed up at the dealership?

"George Z. Bush" wrote

I was born in 1923 and, when I was a kid, I was hugely interested in everything
I could get my hands on about WWI. To this day, I can probably dredge up
details about various land battles that today's youngsters don't even have a
clue about.

George Z.

"Ragnar" wrote in message
...
|
| "Tex Houston" wrote in message
| ...
|
| "Ragnar" wrote in message
| ...
|
| Most people involved with those activities are trying to relive a
| "golden
| age" of some sort. WW2 was the last "pure" war, with good and evil
| facing
| off in a fight to the finish (yes, the Soviets weren't "good", but you
| get
| the idea). Today's world is largely unsatisfactory to some people,
and
| instead of working to make it better, they try to relive the past.
|
| Surely you jest. All war is an abomination and there is nothing "pure"
| about it. You do what you have to do in a war and move on.
|
|
| I merely repeat what various commentators and civilians have said. I have
| heard WW2 called the "last good war" many times, almost always by people
who
| don't have degrees in history or who have never been shot at.
|
|





Which is probably why the Korean conflict is often described as the
'forgotten war'







Cheers


Dave Kearton

I was a little too young to care much about cars in those days. Not only that,
but there was a depression going on and my family couldn't afford the $300 or
$400 that one of those would have cost.

Yeah, I know. You're just funnin' me, and that's OK too. There's still a
helluva lot that went on that we old farts can remember that you "young" pups
don't know squat about.......Baby!

Smile.....you're on Candid Camera. (*-*)))

George Z.

D. Strang wrote:
Yea Baby! What was it like when the 32 Ford showed up at the dealership?

"George Z. Bush" wrote

I was born in 1923 and, when I was a kid, I was hugely interested in
everything I could get my hands on about WWI. To this day, I can probably
dredge up details about various land battles that today's youngsters don't
even have a clue about.

George Z.

Dave Kearton wrote:
"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

"Tex Houston" wrote in message
...

"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

Most people involved with those activities are trying to relive a "golden
age" of some sort. WW2 was the last "pure" war, with good and evil facing
off in a fight to the finish (yes, the Soviets weren't "good", but you get
the idea). Today's world is largely unsatisfactory to some people, and
instead of working to make it better, they try to relive the past.

Surely you jest. All war is an abomination and there is nothing "pure"
about it. You do what you have to do in a war and move on.


I merely repeat what various commentators and civilians have said. I have
heard WW2 called the "last good war" many times, almost always by people who
don't have degrees in history or who have never been shot at.

Which is probably why the Korean conflict is often described as the
'forgotten war'

I've heard WWII called the "last good war" also but, as was suggested, anyone
who fought in one knows that "war" and "good" are two words that oughtn't be
used in the same sentence. I think the phrase is used mostly in the context
that very very few Americans had any doubts about why we were in it and you
rarely, if ever, heard any arguments about it.

George Z.

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:44:38 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Even his personal stories are suspect when he repeatedly comes out with such
hogwash as "we never missed our target". He has claimed accuracy rivaling
that which is attained by PGM's, and surpassing that acheived by folks like
Ed with their F-105's during the Vietnam conflict.

Sure, but then this just means he doesn't have the breadth of
character to express any objectivity about his experiences in this
forum. That's all.

Had that been the case
the B-26 Marauder would have lasted a lot longer in service than it did. No
level bomber (or for that matter dive bomber), or unit of same, of WWII can
claim to have never failed to have hit their target--the USSBS bears that
out.

Of course. He can still take pride in the efforts and achievements he
participated in, even if he's unable to take into account a reasonable
sense of proportion. Being a WW2 veteran doesn't automatically mean
that he's infallible or invest his personality with any external
benefit.

Gavin Bailey

Subject: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
From: Presidente Alcazar
Date: 2/28/04 2:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:44:38 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Even his personal stories are suspect when he repeatedly comes out with such
hogwash as "we never missed our target". He has claimed accuracy rivaling
that which is attained by PGM's, and surpassing that acheived by folks like
Ed with their F-105's during the Vietnam conflict.

Sure, but then this just means he doesn't have the breadth of
character to express any objectivity about his experiences in this
forum. That's all.

Had that been the case
the B-26 Marauder would have lasted a lot longer in service than it did. No
level bomber (or for that matter dive bomber), or unit of same, of WWII can
claim to have never failed to have hit their target--the USSBS bears that
out.

Of course. He can still take pride in the efforts and achievements he
participated in, even if he's unable to take into account a reasonable
sense of proportion. Being a WW2 veteran doesn't automatically mean
that he's infallible or invest his personality with any external
benefit.

Gavin Bailey



Gavin,

The USSBS was an economic analysis of STRATEGIC bombing. That is heavy bombers
working from 22,000 feet under very difficult conditions. We were tactical
bombers, medium bombers working from 8-10,000 feet which gave us near point
blank accuracy. A totally different set of conditions than the strategic
operations., When a target ABSOLUTELY MUST BE TAKEN OUT NOW, THEY DIDN'T SEND
IN B-17'S WORKING FROM 22,000 FEET. THEY SENT IN MARAUDERS FROM 10,000 FEET.
The Bridge at Arnhem was a case in point where a target had to be taken our
immediately where failure was intolerable.We did that job from 8,000 feet and
wiped out that bridge in one shot.
Any time anyone takes the USSBS report and paints all of bombing in WW II with
that ECONOMIC report you know you are talking to someone with zero knowledge
of bombing in WWII. Just a wannabee wirth a big mouth and zero understanding
of tactical bombing operations in WW II. And it is well known that the B-26
Marauders ended up with the most accurate bombing record in WWII in USAAC
operations. So when someone places the USSBS and Marauders in the same
sentence, you know you are talking to a total fraud and most probably somone
with near zero actual combat experience in the air..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer