Towpilots ignoring turn signals

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 10:51:55 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.

Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it.. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.

Steering turns were taught to me at this place and this is on there web site. I'm surprised you old timers have not chimed in.
From Sky Sailing webpage:
http://www.skysailing.com/pages/signals1.htm

GLIDER SIGNALS:
Move to left/right, line up tail wheel to main of towplane = steering turn (note: you must remain in that position until you want the tug to go straight, use coordinated turns to get into position, DO NOT just rudder out)

I trained in the UK in 1977. We were taught how to steer the tow plane. I've only needed/tried to steer the tow plane to better looking sky a couple of times in the UK and a couple of times in the US. One of US tow pilots seemed clueless, otherwise it worked fine.

I once had a release failure in the UK. Open Cirrus "B". I flew abeam left and rocked the wings three times. No response at all from the tow pilot. The release finally let go. I had landed at one UK site and needed a cast-iron thermal to get to home plate. Got there okay and had the CG tow hook replaced before flying the Cirrus again.

Released once in anger when the tow pilot gave the wing rock. Out of fuel. 180 return from 200ft. Proper apology for departing without fuel.

Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes not.

Frank Whiteley

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:51:39 PM UTC-4, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
Don, what you do or do not do is of little relevance to the discussion at hand.

Maybe the UK is dead wrong in this case (or not), but it is useful to hear the divergence of opinion/experience. I'm waiting to see if anyone can cite a case of a botched USA signal causing a tug upset.

If the glider pilot botches the signal, and goes too far out of position horizontally, would that cause the tug a problem? If pilots are routinely sloppy about tow position, it's plausible that a 'please turn signal' could be badly botched. What are the scenarios for a botched 'please turn signal'?

Related: Is it safe to 'box the wake' while the tug is making a turn? I vaguely recall that a CFI-G had me do that once or twice.

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 5:00:06 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have one
expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying out to
the side, seriously?

"Attempting to steer the towplane by pulling his tail around is just dumb. "

As a tow pilot, I expect the glider to pull my tail around and steer me to where he/she wants to go if they are not happy with my choice. I think Dave's response is just dumb. Obviously a radio call is the first choice for re-directing me.

As a tow pilot, I have no problem letting the glider steer me.

As a glider pilot, I have no problem giving the tow pilot directional suggestions. However, If the tow pilot is unresponsive to my suggestions, I don't push the envelope much past the normal wake boxing position.
That would be stupid.

Once a glider pilot tried to steer me toward a bank of clouds at our current altitude, and I refused. He was frustrated I guess, because he yanked my tail in the same direction a second time, as if forgetting to release the rope. The tow was an instructional flight and the instructor was attempting to demonstrate steering. He could have easily gone the other way, which was clear of clouds. So, I terminated the tow.
See ya...

The practice isn't inherently dangerous, done correctly. Some pilots don't.
Jim.

There's no reason why you could not box the wake during a turn or why
the tug could not execute a turn during a boxing exercise other than the
CFI-G doesn't seem to want to do it. It's simply extended trail
formation flying as is the tow.

On 5/1/2015 6:13 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:51:39 PM UTC-4, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
Don, what you do or do not do is of little relevance to the discussion at hand.
Maybe the UK is dead wrong in this case (or not), but it is useful to hear the divergence of opinion/experience. I'm waiting to see if anyone can cite a case of a botched USA signal causing a tug upset.

If the glider pilot botches the signal, and goes too far out of position horizontally, would that cause the tug a problem? If pilots are routinely sloppy about tow position, it's plausible that a 'please turn signal' could be badly botched. What are the scenarios for a botched 'please turn signal'?

Related: Is it safe to 'box the wake' while the tug is making a turn? I vaguely recall that a CFI-G had me do that once or twice.

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 5:00:06 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have one
expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying out to
the side, seriously?

--
Dan Marotta

Jim,

Did you wave him off or drop the rope? Ropes and rings are expensive!

On 5/1/2015 7:08 AM, Jim David wrote:
As a tow pilot, I have no problem letting the glider steer me.

As a glider pilot, I have no problem giving the tow pilot directional suggestions. However, If the tow pilot is unresponsive to my suggestions, I don't push the envelope much past the normal wake boxing position.
That would be stupid.

Once a glider pilot tried to steer me toward a bank of clouds at our current altitude, and I refused. He was frustrated I guess, because he yanked my tail in the same direction a second time, as if forgetting to release the rope. The tow was an instructional flight and the instructor was attempting to demonstrate steering. He could have easily gone the other way, which was clear of clouds. So, I terminated the tow.
See ya...

The practice isn't inherently dangerous, done correctly. Some pilots don't.
Jim.



--
Dan Marotta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhKpp1eMAbA



At 14:36 01 May 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
Jim,

Did you wave him off or drop the rope? Ropes and rings are expensive!

On 5/1/2015 7:08 AM, Jim David wrote:
As a tow pilot, I have no problem letting the glider steer me.

As a glider pilot, I have no problem giving the tow pilot directional
suggestions. However, If the tow pilot is unresponsive to my suggestions,
I
don't push the envelope much past the normal wake boxing position.
That would be stupid.

Once a glider pilot tried to steer me toward a bank of clouds at our
current altitude, and I refused. He was frustrated I guess, because he
yanked my tail in the same direction a second time, as if forgetting to
release the rope. The tow was an instructional flight and the instructor
was attempting to demonstrate steering. He could have easily gone the
other
way, which was clear of clouds. So, I terminated the tow.
See ya...

The practice isn't inherently dangerous, done correctly. Some pilots
don't.
Jim.



--
Dan Marotta

It would be cool to have a Swift towed by an Extra 300, they could do counter-rotating synchronized rolls on tow...with colored smoke, that would look awesome!

Kirk

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:14:53 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Don,



This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots.* In the US, steering
the tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training.* It is
not dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.



In the US, my experience regarding ground launch has typically been
that most folks consider it dangerous.* I find it quite enjoyable
and cost effective compared to air tow.



I understand that, in Australia, it is MANDATORY to fly in high tow
position.* That makes me very uncomfortable when I'm flying the tug..



In Britain, they do a lot of cloud flying.* You've already read in
recent threads that US pilots (me excluded) think that's crazy and
dangerous.



So I ask you:* What's dangerous?* Is it what you think is dangerous
based upon your experience and under common practices where you fly,
or is it what is out of the ordinary for the region in question?* I
think the latter choice is more appropriate.




On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone
wrote:



At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:



ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.


OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.






--

Dan Marotta

I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail. What will the towpilot do if you are pulling the tail left and he needs to turn left for traffic? Is it worth losing a rope? or having the rope wrap around your wing when the towpilot is forced to release? or have the towpilot or you run get in a mid-air?

There are many things that have been changed in gliding manuals over the years. You're allowed to make changes as you gain experience.