Landout Laws

"BMacLean" wrote in
news:uUsYb.17230$Zt4.9203@okepread01:

A few years ago I was participating in our club ASA contest series.
The first day I landed out about 50 miles away at a private
residential airstrip. Of course, the inhabitants were extremely
welcoming. The met me with a golf cart, pushed my glider off the
runway, immediately got me my cold drink of choice (Diet Coke), drove
me all around the area showing me each resident's personal aircraft.
At each stop we made, we picked up a new friend so by the time the
towplane arrived and I was taking off I had about 20 wing runners and
quite a send-off of waving hands.

The next day, also a contest day, I landed (yes) at the same airport
and was immediately met with "we were hoping to see you again but we
didn't think it would be this soon...you like Diet Coke, right?" It
was kind of embarassing but I had another nice afternoon waiting for
the towplane.

I would like to add that being a female I pay particular attention to
where I might have to land. I know that because of that I am not as
bold as some of my male friends in pushing out a flight. I am more
conscious of staying in gliding range of a hospitable landing place
than say a dilapidated farm out in the middle of nowhere. I just am
more aware that there still may be problems to face after I land. And
if I do have to land out in a field somewhere I tend to land away from
buildings because I really don't want anyone to see me, I just don't
know who or what I'll run into. I'm not overly paranoid, just
cautious. (I also don't walk through dark parking lots at night.)
But I do absolutely love flying cross-country, the farther, the
faster, the better.

Barb



My wife and I kind of joke about this.... Elaine Boosler had a bit about
why women have to be more carefull then men... "Oh I'm not going jogging
in the park I have a ****** (insert part of female anatomy that begins
with a "v") with me; If Id'a known, I would have left it at home"

....guess you had to have heard it.. reading it seems kind of lame :-(

oh well.

--
ET


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

Bob Kuykendall wrote:

That's a conclusion based on a thread that has specifically explored
the more troublesome episodes. In my experience of 25 years of crewing
and one pasture landing, the majority of outlandings are friendly
adventures as you describe.

Thanks for relieving me of my concerns! In fact, that's what I expected. I
will come for some flights, sooner or later!

Btw, the remark "Who*has*more*guns" really made me think. This is just out
of question. While flying, I can control the risks I take. I am not going
to fly over areas where guns wait for me on the ground.

Eggert

Steve Hopkins wrote:

I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
do wonders for public relations, I think they even
managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
in his field that year!

A variation on the theme is the Farmer's Wine and Cheese Party at Lasham-
been going since the 1960s. I believe at one time it was even in the
social events diary in "Farmer's Weekly". I've also, when flying in the
south of England had farmers asking if I could get then an invite.

Another approach used by some British clubs is the aerotow trial lesson
voucher- it generates goodwill and only costs the pilot money if the person
he gives it to actually shows up to take the ride.
--
Soar the big sky
The real name on the left is richard

I've been following this thread with interest. As I was reading it I was
also updating my landout site database. Starting with
http://www.airstripamerica.com/ and http://www.airnav.com/airports/us, I
looked for runways in the area that I plan to be flying which would
accomodate the 20+ meter span of the Nimbus 2C.

In about three weeks I am planning a two day road trip to southern Colorado
and northern New Mexico to eyeball, measure and photograph a bunch of these
potential landing sites. I will post the pictures and information to the
Airstrip America web site as they request so other glider pilots can use the
information. I suggest that it would be a good idea for all of us to do
this for everyones benefit.

One duster strip is strategically located on the second leg of a proposed
500K triangle and the owners e-mail address was listed. I e-mailed him to
ask about the width of his dirt runway and whether I might use it in an
emergency. He replied, "Why sure, it's plenty wide." "Drop in anytime!"

Based on some of the inputs by r.a.s. members in this thread, I will also
ask the AG pilots at the various strips I visit which farms and ranches to
avoid. I expect they will know a lot about their customers.

Bill Daniels

Actually I don't blame the farmers too much. Take Dayton duster strip, about 20
miles N/E of Minden. His gate was unlocked and the road led right through his
ranch complex (home & barn) His strip got a lot of use, because it was the last
place to land before the mountains blocked the way home from the North. Some
crews didn't even stop and ask permission at the ranch house and would just
drive right through his yard, leaving a cloud of dust on their way to his
duster strip. His gate was left wide open on several occasions. little wonder
he finally said. NO MORE.

That ranch is now a million dollar aviation & golfing complex with a nice long,
paved runway. Guess what? A local tow-pilot reported them to the Reno FSDO,
because their runway markers were too close to the runway (a glider hit one as
it was being aero-towed out). RIGHT BACK to SQUARE ONE. Gliders are no longer
welcome there. I believe one can land there, but aero-towing out is forbidden,
because they might hit one of their *illegal* runway markers.
JJ Sinclair

TRY THIS IT WORKED FOR ME AND IS A FACT.
" I'm sorry you are upset and feel the way you do Mr. Farmer. However, I did
not elect or desire to make an emergency landing on your property. This
aircraft is licensed and operated in accordance with the rules, regulations,
and laws of the U S Goverment and its Dept. of Federal Aviation Adm. See that
registration number on the tail. If you do not wish to permit me to remove this
aircraft from your property, then so be it. I must, however, by Federal law
notify the the FAA that an aircraft incident has occured on your property. In
turn they will conduct an investigation within 24 to 48 hours of the incident
as well as you and your background and surrounding circunstances. I dont think
you want to deal with that, but if you do then so be it. Or, you can permit and
assist me in getting this aircraft off your property right NOW."

"PENN2P" wrote in message
...
TRY THIS IT WORKED FOR ME AND IS A FACT.
" I'm sorry you are upset and feel the way you do Mr. Farmer. However, I
did
not elect or desire to make an emergency landing on your property.
BIG SNIP//////


The only problem with this line of thinking is that the landing wasn't
an emergency. Off field landings, while not terribly common, are not
technically emergencies. They are unplanned events, but they do not
carry the imminent risk of injury, loss of life or the other things
emergencies
use for definition. In fact, the use of trailers and the use of a recovery
crew
seem to indicate that it is an expected outcome. I wouldn't go there
if I didn't need to.

Scott.

plasticguy wrote:

Farmers don't
usually know squat about soaring. For all they know,
your full of poisonous fuel

It's not just the farmers.

One day at the '99 USA 15m Nats, I was trying to fly from the Big Spring
TX turnpoint back to Hobbs NM when I ended up landing at the Levelland
TX airport. (If you look up the locations of these three towns on a map,
you'll get a good idea of the size of the thunderstorm that I was trying
to circumnavigate.) The single runway was closed for re-paving, so I
landed on the taxiway and rolled to a stop on the ramp.

I had time to push my Ventus off to the side of the fuel pump area, call
for my crew on the airport pay phone, and strike up a conversation with
the airport manager, all before the next glider arrived. I knew that
Levelland is only 20 miles south of the Caprock Soaring Club's operation
at Littlefield TX, and so was not surprised when the manager told me
that he had seen gliders land here many times before.

I had dumped all my ballast 15 minutes before landing, but Roy Cundiff
did not pull the cork until he entered downwind for Levelland. I left
the airport office to catch Roy's wingtip as he rolled to a stop, with
half a load of water still draining out.

The airport manager came running up to us. He was on the verge of going
ballistic because Roy's Ventus was apparently dumping Jet-A fuel all
over the ramp, creating a huge fire hazard only 100 feet from the fuel
pumps! It took only a short time to convince him that it was merely
water, but quite a while longer to explain why the glider was carrying
so many gallons of water in its "fuel" tanks...

I was gratified that Roy tried as hard as I did not to laugh at this
man's concerns. And that brings me to this bit of advice: NEVER laugh at
anyone during a landout, unless you are sure that they are telling a
joke that they think is funny.

Gary Ittner P7
"Have glider, will race"

How true. I went to pick up 053 during the 2002 1-26 champs, and was
met by a local farmer alongside the field, that Neil had landed in.
Neil had gone down the road with another local farmer, and his gang of
excited kids, to use a phone.

When I pulled up with the trailer this guy gets out of his old pickup.
I introduced myself, and shook his hand. All he says with a very
suspicious tone was "sumpin' goin' on here". I told him yessir, one of
our pilots from the Air Force Academy's 2002 glider contest had to
land in this nice field. He just repeated his first statement and
added" that pilot had him a big bag of something that he carried off
with him".

I told him that the pilot probably had his water bag and his kit
containing his landout phone numbers. He then tells me how he suspects
his neighbor farmer, who had picked up Neil was in on the conspiracy.
Oh boy. Along comes a mom with a couple of kids. She's another
neighbor. The old boy tell's her "sumpin' goin' on here". She looks at
me, kind of rolls her eyes, suggesting to me that she too doesn't
beleive her neighbor here, is wrapped too tight.

So I offer up that I am a professional pilot and would be glad to give
the nice lady my credentials and some phone numbers to check it all
out. The farmer tells her to go ahead and write down the information.
He then goes away happy.

Neil comes back with the smiling farmer and his kids, we load the kids
up in the glider for pictures, and headed back to Bullseye. Some days
I feel like I would make a pretty good car salesman.
Gary Ittner wrote in message ...
plasticguy wrote:

Farmers don't
usually know squat about soaring. For all they know,
your full of poisonous fuel

It's not just the farmers.

One day at the '99 USA 15m Nats, I was trying to fly from the Big Spring
TX turnpoint back to Hobbs NM when I ended up landing at the Levelland
TX airport. (If you look up the locations of these three towns on a map,
you'll get a good idea of the size of the thunderstorm that I was trying
to circumnavigate.) The single runway was closed for re-paving, so I
landed on the taxiway and rolled to a stop on the ramp.

I had time to push my Ventus off to the side of the fuel pump area, call
for my crew on the airport pay phone, and strike up a conversation with
the airport manager, all before the next glider arrived. I knew that
Levelland is only 20 miles south of the Caprock Soaring Club's operation
at Littlefield TX, and so was not surprised when the manager told me
that he had seen gliders land here many times before.

I had dumped all my ballast 15 minutes before landing, but Roy Cundiff
did not pull the cork until he entered downwind for Levelland. I left
the airport office to catch Roy's wingtip as he rolled to a stop, with
half a load of water still draining out.

The airport manager came running up to us. He was on the verge of going
ballistic because Roy's Ventus was apparently dumping Jet-A fuel all
over the ramp, creating a huge fire hazard only 100 feet from the fuel
pumps! It took only a short time to convince him that it was merely
water, but quite a while longer to explain why the glider was carrying
so many gallons of water in its "fuel" tanks...

I was gratified that Roy tried as hard as I did not to laugh at this
man's concerns. And that brings me to this bit of advice: NEVER laugh at
anyone during a landout, unless you are sure that they are telling a
joke that they think is funny.

Gary Ittner P7
"Have glider, will race"

On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article ,
"plasticguy" wrote:

Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Cite?

There is plenty in soaring to be technical about, but aren't we really
dealing here with a state of mind?


They are unplanned events...

They are premeditated. They should be, and are, planned-for. They are not
necessarily intended.


...they do not carry the imminent risk of injury, loss of life or
the other things emergencies use for definition.

The closer you get to landing the more of an emergency a landout is. It is
not necessary in any other type of aviation activity with which I am
familiar to see injury or loss of life as imminent before one is encouraged
to declare an emergency. The point of categorizing a particular situation as
an emergency is most often as a proactive measure in order to avoid
imminence. Perhaps in contradiction of any unexamined expectations, I think
it is reasonable to say that a landout by a ranked competitor in a fast,
heavy, many-meter ship may be as dangerous, and as much an emergency, as an
A-Badger struggling into the same field in a 2-33.


...the use of trailers and the use of a recovery crew
seem to indicate that it is an expected outcome.

....to the same extent that the provision of fire fighting equipment and
emergency medical teams at airline airports indicate that there is an
expectation they will be needed. The presence of mechanics with tools at
most airports is an indication that mechanical failures will occur. That
does not bar many types of failures from being considered emergency
conditions.


I wouldn't go there if I didn't need to.

With that I can agree wholeheartedly. Describing the average landout as an
emergency procedure might not be healthy for the sport, neither in a public
relations sense, in a regulatory sense, nor in the cause of recruiting new
participants.

Nonetheless, landouts are the closest thing I know of in soaring to the
number and variety of emergencies in other realms of aviation of which I
have first hand knowledge.

One has limited time, limited resources, and a more or less rapidly closing
window of opportunity for a successful outcome. Everywhere else in aviation,
that is enough to encourage crew members to assume an emergency condition
mindset, whether in order to avail themselves of assistance or just to
diminish the threat to themselves and others.

If the idea of being in an emergency condition from the time we leave for
the airport until the time we put on our slippers and light our pipes at the
end of the day is somewhat unsettling, then that may indicate a certain lack
of acceptance of the realities.

In soaring there are only three, after all. ;



Jack