when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

If, after having said "remain clear" the controller comes back with
"Cessna 1234, where did you want to go?" that is an implicit
clearance to enter the class C.


No, it is not. I don't know where you got that idea but it is simply not
correct. There is nothing in "Cessna 1234, where did you want to go?" that
implies authorization to enter Class C airspace when previously told to
remain clear.



Controller's know the rules. If they don't want you in their airspace,
they
will ignore you or repeat the "remain clear" instruction.


If the pilot acknowledged the first instruction to remain clear there's no
need to repeat it.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

If, after having said "remain clear" the controller comes back with
"Cessna 1234, where did you want to go?" that is an implicit
clearance to enter the class C.


No, it is not. I don't know where you got that idea but it is simply not
correct. There is nothing in "Cessna 1234, where did you want to go?"
that
implies authorization to enter Class C airspace when previously told to
remain clear.

It is correct. It is radio contact which is documented as permission to
enter the class C.




Controller's know the rules. If they don't want you in their airspace,
they
will ignore you or repeat the "remain clear" instruction.


If the pilot acknowledged the first instruction to remain clear there's no
need to repeat it.



If the contoller wanted the pilot to remain clear, he would have simply
ignored him. The fact that the controller took the time to establish radio
contact - to ask a question or to provide information - is sufficient
acknowledgment (according to the AIM) that the pilot may enter the class C.

-----------------------------
Travis

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

It is correct. It is radio contact which is documented as permission to
enter the class C.


It is documented that radio contact and an instruction to remain clear of
Class C airspace is not permission to enter the Class C.



If the contoller wanted the pilot to remain clear, he would have simply
ignored him. The fact that the controller took the time to establish radio
contact - to ask a question or to provide information - is sufficient
acknowledgment (according to the AIM) that the pilot may enter the
class C.


You need to review the AIM. The AIM states, "If workload or traffic
conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, the controller
will inform the pilot to remain outside the Class C airspace until
conditions permit the services to be provided."

(Arden Prinz) wrote in message . com...
The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace.
Thank-you.

Sorry to bust you like this, but I think you need to spend a little
more time understanding what your responsibilities are as a Pilot. If
the controller says "Remain clear is Class C" then you stay out of
class C. Jezzzz, What gave you the idea you can violate his
instructions? Hate to say it, but your lack of understanding is why
we are having pilots violate TFR's and other special use airspace. Get
with a instructor and review airspace and the FAR's. Also, tell your
pilot friend that he should have pointed out your mistake. If he was a
CFI, then his ass would also be subject for FAA actions.

Again, sorry to bust you like this. However I feel if you had the
balls to write this obvious lack of judgement in your flying skill,
then you open yourself up to my wrath.

"Mark" wrote in message
om...
[...]
Again, sorry to bust you like this. However I feel if you had the
balls to write this obvious lack of judgement in your flying skill,
then you open yourself up to my wrath.

Your "wrath"? LOL! That's all the wrath you've got? I've seen mice with
more wrath.

In any case, it should be clear enough to you from the direction the
thread's taken that the issue isn't quite as clear, cut, and dried as you
think it is. Perhaps you failed to notice that the original "remain clear"
instruction was given by a different controller, while the airplane was
still on the ground?

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
"Mark" wrote in message
om...
[...]
Again, sorry to bust you like this. However I feel if you had the
balls to write this obvious lack of judgement in your flying skill,
then you open yourself up to my wrath.

Your "wrath"? LOL! That's all the wrath you've got? I've seen mice with
more wrath.

In any case, it should be clear enough to you from the direction the
thread's taken that the issue isn't quite as clear, cut, and dried as you
think it is. Perhaps you failed to notice that the original "remain clear"
instruction was given by a different controller, while the airplane was
still on the ground?

Pete

Pete:
I was trying to be a little nice, but I guess you expected more?

It's nice to have a NG forum to debate these issues AFTER the fact,
however in the cockpit you don't have the luxery of debating the issue
and looking up every nuance in the FAR's. The pilot was told "after
departure remain clear of the class C airspace". Then "After
departure" he was call with some trivial info and then "I turned and
headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the class C to
the surface airspace.". If a different controller told him to cross
into class C, then it's legal to ENTER class C. However I simple call
by this pilot with the phrase "Can I enter Class Charlie?" would have
done wonders to clear things up between the pilot and the new
controller.

I teach students that yes, you follow the FAR's. However when in
doubt or confused, TALK TO THE CONTROLLER AND CLEAR IT UP! You have a
brain, use it. There has been many accidents where lack of
communication was the cause. Most students want to act professional
and DON'T ask questions on the radio. However MORE private pilots
THINK since they have a license they don't NEED to ask questions.
This problem is compounded when flying with a fellow pilot, they don't
want to look stupid in front of a peer. I have more respect for a
pilot that will put their ego aside and ask a question over one that
pretends they are Mr. Right Stuff.

All this debate BS above is nice for the day after. However you need
to remember to teach the proper responce when you don't have the
luxery of time to think a problem through. Aviate, Navigate and
Communicate.

"Mark" wrote in message
om...

Pete:
I was trying to be a little nice, but I guess you expected more?

It's nice to have a NG forum to debate these issues AFTER the fact,
however in the cockpit you don't have the luxery of debating the issue
and looking up every nuance in the FAR's. The pilot was told "after
departure remain clear of the class C airspace". Then "After
departure" he was call with some trivial info and then "I turned and
headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the class C to
the surface airspace.". If a different controller told him to cross
into class C, then it's legal to ENTER class C. However I simple call
by this pilot with the phrase "Can I enter Class Charlie?" would have
done wonders to clear things up between the pilot and the new
controller.

I teach students that yes, you follow the FAR's. However when in
doubt or confused, TALK TO THE CONTROLLER AND CLEAR IT UP! You have a
brain, use it. There has been many accidents where lack of
communication was the cause. Most students want to act professional
and DON'T ask questions on the radio. However MORE private pilots
THINK since they have a license they don't NEED to ask questions.
This problem is compounded when flying with a fellow pilot, they don't
want to look stupid in front of a peer. I have more respect for a
pilot that will put their ego aside and ask a question over one that
pretends they are Mr. Right Stuff.

All this debate BS above is nice for the day after. However you need
to remember to teach the proper responce when you don't have the
luxery of time to think a problem through. Aviate, Navigate and
Communicate.

I take it that your capitals are directed at those of us continuing the
debate beyond its useful life. Otherwise, I pitty your poor students.

You are correct that, when unsure, we should not be affraid to ask for
clarification. In this case, the flying pilot wasn't unsure. He did what he
thought was permissible. He had no reason to ask for clarification from the
controller.

If the non-flying pilot thought it was wrong, he should have said so. Maybe
the CRM wasn't what it should be. Maybe it didn't occur to him until he was
on the ground. For whatever reason, the non-flying pilot must not have been
sure enough of himself to question it in the air. He was right to voice it
at some time, for his own education.

I happen to believe that the pilot was correct, did not need to ask for
permission and was free to enter the class C. But, thanks to all this debate
BS, I at least now know that it may not be clear cut. The next time I talk
to the controllers at my home base, I'll ask them.

-------------------------------
Travis

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message link.net...
I take it that your capitals are directed at those of us continuing the
debate beyond its useful life. Otherwise, I pitty your poor students.


When instructing I usually end a comment like that with a Howard Dean
"AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHHH".

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

I happen to believe that the pilot was correct, did not need to ask for
permission and was free to enter the class C.


You've made it very clear that is what you believe, what you haven't
explained is why you believe it.



But, thanks to all this debate BS, I at least now know that it may
not be clear cut. The next time I talk to the controllers at my
home base, I'll ask them.


What makes you think they'd know anything about it?

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

In any case, it should be clear enough to you from the direction the
thread's taken that the issue isn't quite as clear, cut, and dried as you
think it is.


Actually, the issue is cut and dried. From the direction this thread's
taken it's clear that some pilots have a poor understanding of regulations
and procedures with regard to Class C airspace.



Perhaps you failed to notice that the original "remain clear"
instruction was given by a different controller, while the airplane was
still on the ground?


Nothing in the original message indicates the original "remain clear"
instruction was given by a different controller, and it wouldn't matter if
it had.