Diamond goal flight rejected due to typo

On Jun 12, 5:18*am, T8 wrote:
On Jun 11, 10:01*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

*FAILURE TO FOLLOW THIS REQUIREMENT TO ENTER THE
GLIDER N-NUMBER FOR GLIDERID INSTEAD OF A CONTEST ID WILL RESULT IN
THE DENIAL OF THE BADGE CLAIM."

But it would just be so much simpler to eliminate this totally useless
requirement.

-T8

I completely agree that's a great goal, and I want to see this
changed, but much harder to achieve since it seems to involve getting
the IGC to change their position on this.

In the meantime doing a quick fix in the SSA kit may help save some
frustration like described in this thread. The summary guide should
also have a banner/note across the top advising to always do a paper
declaration. And again, maybe more than a quick fix I think the SSA
should not be publishing extensive rule summies (there are folks
posting in this thread who seem to think this summary has some rule
setting ability over the actual sporting code for SSS adjudicated
badges) but pointing pilots only to the sporting code docs. Much
better to capture the common reasons for problems in a doc/checklist.

Darryl

Darryl

In article
,
Frank wrote:

If the IGC *does* object to common sense, then its time to drop the
IGC entirely and go our own way with badges and records. I could care
less if a badge award says 'FAI' or 'SSA' - does anyone else in the
U.S.?

Perhaps the best path would be to give a submitter the choice of trying
for the stricter FAI badge or a more lax SSA badge. Those who don't care
can go for the SSA badge, and those who do can worry about nonsense like
whether their name was slightly misspelled.

Stuff like this certainly gives me very little incentive to do badge
flights. Flying is fun, flying high and far is really fun, but paperwork
is not. I don't see how adding paperwork to the flying adds to the fun,
so why do badges...?

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

On Jun 12, 8:55*am, Frank wrote:
On Jun 12, 8:18*am, T8 wrote:

On Jun 11, 10:01*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

*FAILURE TO FOLLOW THIS REQUIREMENT TO ENTER THE
GLIDER N-NUMBER FOR GLIDERID INSTEAD OF A CONTEST ID WILL RESULT IN
THE DENIAL OF THE BADGE CLAIM."

But it would just be so much simpler to eliminate this totally useless
requirement.

-T8

It would be even simpler to tell the IGC to take a hike, and tell the
badge lady to quit rejecting badge and record claims over
technicalities. *If the IGC wants to go to the trouble of rejecting
claims that the SSA has already approved, let them. *I'll bet $10 that
the IGC (remember, its just another big, bloated bureaucracy filled
with people who don't like doing work) will never trouble itself.
After all, if it is clear that the flight actually happened, and any
technical difficulties with the declaration can be cleared up with a
few emails, then that should do it.

If the IGC *does* object to common sense, then its time to drop the
IGC entirely and go our own way with badges and records. *I could care
less if a badge award says 'FAI' or 'SSA' - does anyone else in the
U.S.?

Frank

But that would be too simple. After all isn't the objective to make it
as difficult as possible? The actual flight is just a tiny part of the
overall process. We need to focus on the big picture. Sometime times
it seems that when the joy of flying get old we turn to contests, when
that becomes old we turn ot the importance of contest rules and when
even that becomes boring we turn to the importance of dotting i's and
crossing your t's on badge claims.

On Jun 12, 4:16*pm, Gary Evans wrote:
On Jun 12, 8:55*am, Frank wrote:



On Jun 12, 8:18*am, T8 wrote:

On Jun 11, 10:01*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

*FAILURE TO FOLLOW THIS REQUIREMENT TO ENTER THE
GLIDER N-NUMBER FOR GLIDERID INSTEAD OF A CONTEST ID WILL RESULT IN
THE DENIAL OF THE BADGE CLAIM."

But it would just be so much simpler to eliminate this totally useless
requirement.

-T8

It would be even simpler to tell the IGC to take a hike, and tell the
badge lady to quit rejecting badge and record claims over
technicalities. *If the IGC wants to go to the trouble of rejecting
claims that the SSA has already approved, let them. *I'll bet $10 that
the IGC (remember, its just another big, bloated bureaucracy filled
with people who don't like doing work) will never trouble itself.
After all, if it is clear that the flight actually happened, and any
technical difficulties with the declaration can be cleared up with a
few emails, then that should do it.

If the IGC *does* object to common sense, then its time to drop the
IGC entirely and go our own way with badges and records. *I could care
less if a badge award says 'FAI' or 'SSA' - does anyone else in the
U.S.?

Frank

But that would be too simple. After all isn't the objective to make it
as difficult as possible? The actual flight is just a tiny part of the
overall process. We need to focus on the big picture. Sometime times
it seems that when the joy of flying get old we turn to contests, when
that becomes old we turn ot the importance of contest rules and when
even that becomes boring we turn to the importance of dotting i's and
crossing your t's on badge claims.

I trust this is tongue-in-cheek. It is about flying and not about
being anal-retentive.
Of course, the documentation has to prove that the flight was made; I
well remember
that a person faked a badge flight back in the 1960's, was proven by
weather records
to have faked the flight, and the badge was withdrawn. (If you have
old enough SSA
Directories you can look this up to find the vacated number and the
name.)

Beyond proving the flight is real and meets the requirements for
altitude and distance,
nothing more is needed. We don't need the trickiness of contest rules
to document
badge flights. If that gets boring fly contests or longer, higher,
faster flights. Don't drag
the fussiness of contest rules into non-competitive flying. Are we
pilots, or are we
pencil sharpeners?
pencils?

On Jun 12, 2:26*pm, None wrote:
On Jun 12, 4:16*pm, Gary Evans wrote:





On Jun 12, 8:55*am, Frank wrote:

On Jun 12, 8:18*am, T8 wrote:

On Jun 11, 10:01*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

*FAILURE TO FOLLOW THIS REQUIREMENT TO ENTER THE
GLIDER N-NUMBER FOR GLIDERID INSTEAD OF A CONTEST ID WILL RESULT IN
THE DENIAL OF THE BADGE CLAIM."

But it would just be so much simpler to eliminate this totally useless
requirement.

-T8

It would be even simpler to tell the IGC to take a hike, and tell the
badge lady to quit rejecting badge and record claims over
technicalities. *If the IGC wants to go to the trouble of rejecting
claims that the SSA has already approved, let them. *I'll bet $10 that
the IGC (remember, its just another big, bloated bureaucracy filled
with people who don't like doing work) will never trouble itself.
After all, if it is clear that the flight actually happened, and any
technical difficulties with the declaration can be cleared up with a
few emails, then that should do it.

If the IGC *does* object to common sense, then its time to drop the
IGC entirely and go our own way with badges and records. *I could care
less if a badge award says 'FAI' or 'SSA' - does anyone else in the
U.S.?

Frank

But that would be too simple. After all isn't the objective to make it
as difficult as possible? The actual flight is just a tiny part of the
overall process. We need to focus on the big picture. Sometime times
it seems that when the joy of flying get old we turn to contests, when
that becomes old we turn ot the importance of contest rules and when
even that becomes boring we turn to the importance of dotting i's and
crossing your t's on badge claims.

I trust this is tongue-in-cheek. *It is about flying and not about
being anal-retentive.
Of course, the documentation has to prove that the flight was made; I
well remember
that a person faked a badge flight back in the 1960's, was proven by
weather records
to have faked the flight, and the badge was withdrawn. (If you have
old enough SSA
Directories you can look this up to find the vacated number and the
name.)

Beyond proving the flight is real and meets the requirements for
altitude and distance,
nothing more is needed. *We don't need the trickiness of contest rules
to document
badge flights. *If that gets boring fly contests or longer, higher,
faster flights. *Don't drag
the fussiness of contest rules into non-competitive flying. Are we
pilots, or are we
pencil sharpeners?
pencils?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Back in the 60's someone was caught faking a badge flight? "O" my God
I didn't know that! Alright then even though it happened 40 years ago
we can't let that ever happen again. We need a new IGC committee to
tighten up those rule and claims.

On Jun 12, 8:55*am, Frank wrote:
*I could care
less if a badge award says 'FAI' or 'SSA' - does anyone else in the
U.S.?



It may nor be as simple as that. The involved NAC may not just be the
NAC of the country where the flight is made. It is quite common for
pilots to visit other countries and to make badge and record flights
while away from home.

In my case all my soaring badges were earned in US because that is
where I was resident. As required by the SSA forms at that time I
declared my nationality as British and all my badges are recorded in
the UK register.

In this case both SSA and BGA would have to have been satisfied that
my claims met all applicable rules.

That brings me to the subject of a Unique Contest Number. There can be
no such thing in any country or assigned by any NAC. The NAC will
only have control over Contest Numbers issued in its own country and
to gliders operating under its control. Say, for example BGA issues a
"unique" number to a glider and the owner brings that glider to US for
a visit to make a badge or record attempt. The number is no longer
unique since that same number may also have been issued by SSA.

Unless the movement of gliders between countries is made illegal there
can be no such thing as a "unique NAC-assigned contest number". If
the use of contest number is invalid in US it should also be invalid
in all counties for exactly the same reason - that it cannot be known
to be unique.

Given that some (perhaps all if you consider export) countries allow
the registration number to change during the life of an aircraft, the
only unique number associated with any glider is the manufacturer's
serial number.

Andy

On Jun 13, 5:50*am, Andy wrote:
On Jun 12, 8:55*am, Frank wrote:

*I could care
less if a badge award says 'FAI' or 'SSA' - does anyone else in the
U.S.?

It may nor be as simple as that. The involved NAC may not just be the
NAC of the country where the flight is made. *It is quite common for
pilots to visit other countries and to make badge and record flights
while away from home.

In my case all my soaring badges were earned in US because that is
where I was resident. *As required by the SSA forms at that time I
declared my nationality as British and all my badges are recorded in
the UK register.

In this case both SSA and BGA would have to have been satisfied that
my claims met all applicable rules.

That brings me to the subject of a Unique Contest Number. There can be
no such thing in any country or assigned by any NAC. *The NAC will
only have control over Contest Numbers issued in its own country and
to gliders operating under its control. *Say, for example BGA issues a
"unique" number to a glider and the owner brings that glider to US for
a visit to make a badge or record attempt. *The number is no longer
unique since that same number may also have been issued by SSA.

Unless the movement of gliders between countries is made illegal there
can be no such thing as a "unique NAC-assigned contest number". *If
the use of contest number is invalid in US it should also be invalid
in all counties for exactly the same reason - that it cannot be known
to be unique.

Given that some (perhaps all if you consider export) countries allow
the registration number to change during the life of an aircraft, the
only unique number associated with any glider is the manufacturer's
serial number.

Andy

This post repeatedly implies the SSA issues contest IDs to gliders.
Can we please get the basic facts right -- the root issue here is the
SSA does *not* issue contest IDs to gliders, they are issued to
pilots. At any time the FAA issued N-number is a unique, and a BGA
issued contest ID for a glider is unique as well - within the coverage
of the BGA/NAC. It is pretty clear when the sporting code says things
like a "unique NAC assigned Contest ID" it means within the area of
responsibility of that NAC and unique at any point in time. We have a
real, practical issues with the sporting code, flight recorders, and
contest IDs in the USA, and the issues at hand are not really helped
by trying to invent other problems that do not exist.

I suspect folks suggesting the SSA goes it's own way on badges do not
think accomodating foreign badge applicants is an issue. And one
solution would be to to offer you a SSA badge if you wanted a sensible
level of rules, maybe the option of an FAI badge if you want to follow
the sporting code, deal with flight recorder silliness issues exactly,
etc.

On Jun 13, 8:44*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:

This post repeatedly implies the SSA issues contest IDs to gliders.
Can we please get the basic facts right --

Nor once in my post do I make any reference to SSA issuing contest
ID's to gliders..

Please read it more carefully before you post comment!

On Jun 13, 4:10*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jun 13, 8:44*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:

This post repeatedly implies the SSA issues contest IDs to gliders.
Can we please get the basic facts right --

Nor once in my post do I make any reference to SSA issuing contest
ID's to gliders..

Please read it more carefully before you post comment!

Your post was largely about contest numbers *for gliders*, you stated
that you are worried about bringing a glider here because the SSA
could have issued the same contest number and therefore your glider's
contest number won't be unique. It's painful to keep saying this, but
I will -- the SSA does not issue contest numbers to gliders. None nada
zilch. So, even if cross NAC uniqueness might every be an issue, which
it is not, it just does not make sense to talk about a conflict
between unique NAC assigned Contest IDs for gliders since the SSA does
not issue Contest IDs for gliders.

An SSA issued Contest ID is invalid as a Glider ID for any badge or
record flight claim. I believe you do understanding this, but your
writing about in a way that is not clear and implies to a reader that
the SSA does issues contest IDs to gliders. And the root issue here is
that many people don't get the subtle issue around Glider ID and
Contest ID so yes I'm being overly picky on that clarity.

---

And recapping the real issue, again, I'm fine with a rule that says
the SSA issued Contest ID is not to be used when a Glider ID is
required (because well, it is just not a Glider ID, no argument from
me there) - but we need some common sense approach here with the IGC
agreeing to allow something like just letting the OO have a way of
noting a correction from an incorrect Contest ID or pilot name entered
into an electronic flight recorder. The OO witnessed what glider the
pilot flew, simply allow the Glider ID (and pilot name if also messed
up) header data to be overridden (but obviously not any declared turn
points) post flight by a note from the OO -- that solves this problem
and others and introduces no additional practical issues. For world
records etc. I have less sympathy for pilots who do not read and
understand the rules in minute details, but at least for badges, time
for some sanity.

Darryl

"Andy" wrote in message
:

On Jun 10, 6:25*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

SSA issued Contest IDs are issued to a pilot and not the glider, and
they are therefore definitely *not* unique to a glider (I owned two
gliders at once both "6DX", but different N-numbers) and AFAIK this
has been the root issue with the IGC and using SSA issues contest IDs
in the IGC file GLIDERID header field.

But it's also true that the glider registration number is not unique
to that airframe serial number, at least in USA. A glider can change
hands and the new owner can apply for a new N number. The original
owner could then apply the original N number to a completely different
glider. Some German manufacturers like to stamp the registration
number on the data plate. Recently the issuance of an airworthiness
certificate was denied until the owner obtained a new data plate that
did not include the N number. Nothing unique about the N number in
USA, they are transferred and reused on different aircraft.

The only things unique are the pilot and the glider serial number. Why
isn't the name of the pilot sufficient.

All that matters is the the verified pilot flew some damn glider over
the required course.

Andy


Nope, you are wrong. N numbers are unique at any given time. The fact
that they can be changed at some time in the future has nothing to do
with it. At a point in time (the time of the goal flight) it is,
verifiably, unique. In your above example the "original owner" cannot
"apply the original N number to a completely different glider". He can
petition the FAA to use the number for a new glider once it is no longer
being used on the old glider, and, if approved, it becomes a unique
number for the new glider in question. No other glider will have that N
number (ie, unique) at that time.

Larry