tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 14, 6:45*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 13, 10:07*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:





On Jul 14, 2:52*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

I had a rope break 12 days ago. The glider moved about 50 ft before
coming to rest.

I've seen several similar breaks over the years.

As far as I know, our club has had precisely one rope break in the air
in the 25 years I've been a member. It happened at around 1500 or 2000
ft and the glider end or the rope and the rings dropped into an
electrical substation, which caused them to become a little unhappy.

I don't know why people are talking about landing downwind from 200ft.
When I've done practice rope breaks it's been about a 90 degree turn
onto a short downwind for the crosswind runway, but almost invariably
when you get onto base for that you figure you've got plenty of height
to turn that into a close in downwind for the active runway.
Certainly, if there's a reasonable wind (20 - 25 knots, say) then it's
easy (and better) to go right around and land upwind even if you land
a fair way up the active runway and/or still at a 20 or 30 degree
angle to it.

Bruce, because many gliderports have shorter single runways. You may
be thinking of operating off long runways at larger airports with
cross runways.

We operate off approximately 450m of grass which forms the long edge
of a right angle triangle. We do have a lot of width or varying
directions available, at the cost of a shorter available distance, but
it's hardly huge.

(the grass is surrounded by tarsealed taxiways (decommissioned
runways) which are theoretically available for undershoot/overrun, at
the cost of a "shout", but past that there is a fence and then km of
very unlandable retail complexes and houses)

I don't know why people are talking about landing downwind from 200ft.
When I've done practice rope breaks it's been about a 90 degree turn
onto a short downwind for the crosswind runway, but almost invariably
when you get onto base for that you figure you've got plenty of height
to turn that into a close in downwind for the active runway.
Certainly, if there's a reasonable wind (20 - 25 knots, say) then it's
easy (and better) to go right around and land upwind even if you land
a fair way up the active runway and/or still at a 20 or 30 degree
angle to it.

How tall are the trees around your glider port?

On Jul 15, 2:48*pm, Tom Stock wrote:
I don't know why people are talking about landing downwind from 200ft.
When I've done practice rope breaks it's been about a 90 degree turn
onto a short downwind for the crosswind runway, but almost invariably
when you get onto base for that you figure you've got plenty of height
to turn that into a close in downwind for the active runway.
Certainly, if there's a reasonable wind (20 - 25 knots, say) then it's
easy (and better) to go right around and land upwind even if you land
a fair way up the active runway and/or still at a 20 or 30 degree
angle to it.

How tall are the trees around your glider port?

I've flown from a dozen or so gliding sites around New Zealand, plus
in the USA I've visited California City, Tehachapi, Turf Soaring,
Estrella, Chicago GC.

At none of them were trees a significant factor in PTT.

That's not to say that none of them had trees. Far from it, especially
here in NZ, but also at CGC.

A good friend of mine, Don Gurnett, suffered a rope break at about 150
feet on tow at a competition and he was loaded with water ballast. He
said he turned back and started dumping instantly and was able to land
on a taxi-way in a crowded environement.

Prof. Tom Schnell of the Universtiy of Iowa Operators Performance
Laboratory, a glider pilot, but the way, gave a talk last week about a
training device they are working on with the Navy. It involves real,
simulated and constructed (artificially simulated) flight. He wires
the test pilots with all kinds of electrodes on the head and torso.
They use either a 3 or 1 screen sophisticated simulator and also
actually fly the back seat of an L-29. The test pilots are mostly
National Guard fighter pilots. Dr. Schnell showed a number of
graphics which showed the increased stress level displayed in various
simulated and actual situaitons. He repeated a number of times that
the brain knows when you are truly at risk and that it is very hard to
get the simulator to duplicate the stresses a pilot feels when really
at physical risk. (One way is considerable task overload.)

I was impressed that simulators may let one practice certain maneuvers
or deal with certain situations in a non-risk environment, but
performing a give way in the simulator does not mean the body will
react the same way when it knows there is physical risk. I am not
saying simulators are not useful. I am only saying they are not
necessarily 100% predictive. Yes, I know that new airline pilots get
their training in a simulator and their first real flight is a revenue
flight.

Here is the OPL site. http://www.ccad.uiowa.edu/opl/

On Jul 13, 10:52*pm, Kevin Christner
wrote:

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

I had a rope break at 150' on my seventh student solo flight. I'm
glad we covered this in pre solo training.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On 7/14/2011 5:40 AM, T8 wrote:
On Jul 13, 10:52 pm, Kevin
wrote:

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. I have never, ever heard of one.

I had a rope break at 150' on my seventh student solo flight. I'm
glad we covered this in pre solo training.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Per Kevin's question, "I have not," and until reading of Evan's experience,
nor had I ever heard of one since beginning participating in soaring in 1972.

That noted, I *did* experience a rope break in 1975 (15-meter glass), so weird
it stuck firmly in memory. Above 1k agl in benign air, the tug smoothly began
accelerating away/up from me, as what seemed like the entire rope sank out of
sight below. Being overhead the runway, I had no hesitation in pulling the
release (though it had probably already back released), lowered the gear
(there being no hope of remaining aloft in the flat conditions) and landed.
Subsequent inspection revealed the rope had parted where it exited a small
'bell-mouth' at the rear of the fuselage, feeding into a winch...meaning at a
portion of the rope neither wing runner or glider pilot would ever be likely
to see. What seemed weird about it to me was the rope had withstood the
(presumably far) larger tension of accelerating the glider from rest, while
parting under a very light, essentially steady-state load.

If it happens it must be possible. The same thought applies to relatively
perplexing accidents as the recent Montana 2-32 crash. Thoughtful pilots will
draw some appropriate-to-them conclusions...

One of my long-standing conclusions is I *can* screw up. Anywhere in a flight.
Hence I try to fly accordingly, especially where the margins are thin.

Bob W.

On Jul 13, 8:52*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:
On Jul 11, 5:38*pm, wrote:
Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

KJC

Actual rope breaks are pretty rare, but I think what you are trying
ask is who has had a PTT (Premature Termination of Tow) below between
200 and 400 feet. These are much more common.

Last month I terminated a tow at about 200 feet by pulling the
release. The tow plane wasn't climbing and I didn't know why. I
released and returned to the runway before we got too far away from
the runway to do so. Not a big deal since I practice this regularly
and it was a training flight anyway. Turned out the towplane was
experiencing carb ice and was fine after applying the carb heat.

I have hit turbulance on tow in my glider and got a slack rope
condition that caused a back release at about 400 feet.

The previous owner of my glider had the canopy depart the glider at
about 200 feet resulting in a broken rope and a 180 turn back to the
runway.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

On Jul 13, 7:52*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:
On Jul 11, 5:38*pm, wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-.......

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

KJC

I have had ONE actual rope break below 400' on Aero tow. I have had
more than a few actual rope breaks below 200' while taking a ground
(auto) tow.

On Jul 11, 5:38*pm, wrote:
On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...Szybowiec_rozb...

My experience with simulated rope breaks is that it is very important.
After crossing 200 AGL you should have plenty of altitude to make a
safe 180. When i got the runway in sight i noticed i was very high
even. It is just important to stay coordinated and keep your speed

On Jul 17, 2:32*pm, bob goodwin wrote:

After crossing 200 AGL you should have plenty of altitude to make a
safe 180.

There is nothing magic about 200ft. It's quite possible that at 200ft
a turn back just isn't possible. Practice rope breaks must be made
at a point where the instructor *knows* a safe turn back can be made.
Instructors who always pull the plug at 200ft, regardless of wind,
sink, and distance from the airport will eventually kill someone.

I have made tows in a ballasted glider where a turn back would not
have been safe for most the tow. At least one of those times the
contest chief tow pilot was persuaded to change the tow pattern.

Andy