The rudder waggle signal does not work

On Jul 23, 7:26*am, T8 wrote:
On Jul 23, 5:33*am, "



wrote:
I learned these in about lesson two of my training and have remembered
them ever since . * I teach these to my students and they seem to have
no trouble remembering. *It's not hard.

[...]
The low tech solution wins out by far!

Cookie

Right. *And that part of the lesson might start out, "there are two
things the tow plane can signal you about, 1) something's wrong with
the tow plane, 2) something's wrong with your glider...."

This is simple as dirt.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Love that way of thinking....makes it crystal clear...will use in
training from now on!


Cookie

On Jul 23, 7:34*am, T8 wrote:
On Jul 22, 10:18*pm, Pat Russell wrote:

The towplane rudder waggle has been directly
responsible for two fatalities!


Not at all.......the responsibility for the two fatalities was the
pilots' failure to maintain closed spoilers during tow......Most
likely due to improper or no pre take off checklist....

Cookie

On Jul 23, 12:32*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 23, 2:33*am, "





wrote:
There are only two possible in-flight signals initiated by the tow
pilot.....wing rock, rudder waggle...that's it.

I learned these in about lesson two of my training and have remembered
them ever since . * I teach these to my students and they seem to have
no trouble remembering. *It's not hard.

To me, a visual signal is a far better form of communication than a
radio braodcast.

The visual signal is quick, simple, to the point, obvious, etc....

Somebody already stated the possible "possible problems with relying
on radio"...there are many....

The low tech solution wins out by far!

Cookie

The low tech solution is not "winning by far"-it's a blatant failure
and why we are talking about this.

It's great how things should be clear and should work. Except they are
not and don't and people are being repeatedly killed by the same
problem.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The "signal" is not a failure nor the problem.....the pilot(s) who
were not familiar with the signal, after taking off with open
spoilers were the failure point(s).....


Cookie

I find it real easy, I just refuse to fly where there are no Aircraft
VHF radios in the tow planes, and the tow pilots know how to use them.
No problems on meaning of rudder waggle, to me it means "Ready to
commence Tow".

Real simple, real easy, really works. Many times when I was in
training I got behind a tow plane/pilot that was doing something I
certaintly didn't undderstand, like going downwind from the airport 5+
miles when it was howling, a simple radio transmission would have told
me he was "Looking for Lift" but in a L-13 he'd better take me an
extra 3,000 feet high to be sure I could get back! Since he didn't I
stasyed on till he finally came back to the airport area.

Oh, and for you sceptics on radios working, I always call the tow on
the grid to let him know who I am. If no answer, no flight until it's
remedied.

Wayne, The JayWalker

So far you have "blamed" the accident on
lack of radio
the rudder signal
The lack of good instruction
the topilots' use of the signal

everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
to something/someone else

By this logic, there's no such thing as a bad training program.

Assigning blame is off-topic.

It's not a question of blame. No one denies that the pilot is
responsible for all of his actions.

The issue is whether our national training program (as promoted by
SSF) contains an unforeseen flaw that is contributing to the accident
rate.

On Jul 24, 8:00*am, Pat Russell wrote:
So far you have "blamed" the accident on
lack of radio
the rudder signal
The lack of good instruction
the topilots' use of the signal

everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
to something/someone else

By this logic, there's no such thing as a bad training program.

Assigning blame is off-topic.

It's not a question of blame. *No one denies that the pilot is
responsible for all of his actions.

The issue is whether our national training program (as promoted by
SSF) contains an unforeseen flaw that is contributing to the accident
rate.

I agree with you Pat, almost every GliderPort I've flown at has a
different view of how to run things and what's "Standard". Our
training is NOT STANDARDIZED throughout the US!! It should be, but
isn't.

Maybe this is a program the SSA & SSF should address and Certify
Instgructors and GliderPorts as following SSA/SSF Approved Traing
Procedures.

One data point on the "dive brake open" detection with this particular
accident.

I've started a flight three times where the divebrakes were unlocked
and then sucked out as speed picked up.

In the first, 20+ years ago, it was a Blanik where we were past the
point that we should have lifted off. I don't know what made me
looked at the wings, but I did and saw them open. Closed them and we
ballooned up, almost causing a second incident but caught it quick
enough and continued on with an otherwise normal tow.

In the second, 12+ years ago, it was in my Standard Libelle where the
divebrakes mattered little to the Pawnee towplane. A radio call from
the towplane at about 700 ft. and I closed them.

In the third, about 8 years ago at Minden, I was launching in the
ASH-26E and halfway down the runway well past where I should have
lifted off, I looked out to see the brakes open. I killed the power,
and slowed down to taxi speed, taxied around back to the takeoff point
for another launch.

After these teaching moments, I now always glance at one wing on the
takeoff roll once I get good aileron control and again once I'm past
the turnaround altitude (400-500 ft.). It's now part of my takeoff /
climbout procedure, so perhaps each pilot can add this to their
procedures, whether or not there are spoiler alarms on the ship.

Kemp

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. Person to person communication. Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. Transponders. Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. Get over it. Buy the equipment. Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

On Jul 24, 8:45*pm, Kemp wrote:
One data point on the "dive brake open" detection with this particular
accident.

I've started a flight three times where the divebrakes were unlocked
and then sucked out as speed picked up.

In the first, 20+ years ago, it was a Blanik where we were past the
point that we should have lifted off. *I don't know what made me
looked at the wings, but I did and saw them open. *Closed them and we
ballooned up, almost causing a second incident but caught it quick
enough and continued on with an otherwise normal tow.

In the second, 12+ years ago, it was in my Standard Libelle where the
divebrakes mattered little to the Pawnee towplane. *A radio call from
the towplane at about 700 ft. and I closed them.

In the third, about 8 years ago at Minden, I was launching in the
ASH-26E and halfway down the runway well past where I should have
lifted off, I looked out to see the brakes open. *I killed the power,
and slowed down to taxi speed, taxied around back to the takeoff point
for another launch.

After these teaching moments, I now always glance at one wing on the
takeoff roll once I get good aileron control and again once I'm past
the turnaround altitude (400-500 ft.). *It's now part of my takeoff /
climbout procedure, so perhaps each pilot can add this to their
procedures, whether or not there are spoiler alarms on the ship.

Kemp

Kemp....

Most learn this lesson after only one time! In fact most learn this
lesson from someone else's mistake...

If you simply do a proper pre flight inspection, a proper take off
check list, and keep a hand near/on the spoiler handle.....it will
never happen....never....100% sure.....(ok...glance at the wing
too.....couldn't hurt)

Then you don't even have to remember the signal, or have a radio....

Cookie

On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:
Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? (in both aircraft?)

Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? (many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! Over....



Cookie