Full before landing checklist in the pattern?

"BoDEAN" wrote in message
...
How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152

I do not have my students reading or referring to printed checklists while
in the pattern, however I insist that they use them for specific phases of
flight, for example, Level Off, Cruise, Arrival, Approach, etc. Strangely,
there is a flight school in our area that specializes in light twin training
and they did , and might still, have students referring to a written
checklist on takeoff and climbout, they might also do this while in the
pattern also. Kinda scary to think about. I would much rather have someone
looking out of the window for traffic and keeping a simple, light, workload
while in the pattern. Besides making sure that the lights are on, the
gauges are green, mixture is set properly and that the carb ht. is set what
else is there? No gear, no cowl flaps, no prop setting, no tanks to switch,
no autopilot, no spoilers, no pres/diff, nothing to arm etc. besides the
guys who have these things take care of them when in range and before they
enter the pattern.
Happy Flying R.Wallace

This gets back to the discussion/controversy about "do" lists versus "check"
lists....students are taught to use the list as a "do" list, which requires
taking an action (or touching a control) for each item on the list. With
experience, pilots graduate to a "check" list, where they use a flow pattern
or other method to do what needs to be done, and then refer to the list as a
"Have I forgotten anything?" reminder.

Bob Gardner

"mrwallace" wrote in message
...

"BoDEAN" wrote in message
...
How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152

I do not have my students reading or referring to printed checklists
while
in the pattern, however I insist that they use them for specific phases of
flight, for example, Level Off, Cruise, Arrival, Approach, etc.
Strangely,
there is a flight school in our area that specializes in light twin
training
and they did , and might still, have students referring to a written
checklist on takeoff and climbout, they might also do this while in the
pattern also. Kinda scary to think about. I would much rather have
someone
looking out of the window for traffic and keeping a simple, light,
workload
while in the pattern. Besides making sure that the lights are on, the
gauges are green, mixture is set properly and that the carb ht. is set
what
else is there? No gear, no cowl flaps, no prop setting, no tanks to
switch,
no autopilot, no spoilers, no pres/diff, nothing to arm etc. besides the
guys who have these things take care of them when in range and before they
enter the pattern.
Happy Flying R.Wallace

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:nBSqb.141282$e01.473457@attbi_s02...
This gets back to the discussion/controversy about "do" lists versus
"check"
lists....students are taught to use the list as a "do" list, which
requires
taking an action (or touching a control) for each item on the list. With
experience, pilots graduate to a "check" list, where they use a flow
pattern
or other method to do what needs to be done, and then refer to the list as
a
"Have I forgotten anything?" reminder.

Bob Gardner
Good point! guess I assumed that by " full before landing checklist" while
"doing pattern work" meant a written one. Seems that the discussion has
devolved into a debate on mnemonics and various rituals while preparing to
land, ok sounds like everyone agrees that something needs to be done; for
example the seat belt issue. Most usually take care of this item before
descent and not in the pattern. As I recall wasn't the original question
related to " doing pattern work"? Sure, pilots need a way to remember
important items for critical phases of operations; mixture is a good example
but the procedures need to be tailored to the aircraft. In a 172 we never
instruct "mixture----Rich but mixture---Set or as req. in our 210 landing at
high alt airports such as Big Bear or Tahoe etc we use full rich(turbo) I
still think that in the pattern all non critical items have been complied
with before and the pilot should only attend critical items and not be
reading a list. Although there are always differences, I sense that most
single pilots operations use a checklist as a "have I forgotten anythig?".
R.Wallace
"mrwallace" wrote in message
...

"BoDEAN" wrote in message
...
How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152

"mrwallace" wrote
Although there are always differences, I sense that most single
pilots operations use a checklist as a "have I forgotten anythig?".

Which is the manner in which we used checklists in the airline
business. A brief quote from my PanAm Boeing manual (which
presented an entire page on why, when, and how to accomplish
checklists) reads as follows:

"The crew can and should accomplish their functions as
circumstances and good judgement dictate. The checklist
then becomes a verification that items have not been
forgotten."

Bob Moore
PanAm (retired)

These guys are probably the same ones that tell you that since it's a
school plane, you can use the "abbreviated preflight checklist" and just
check for fuel and oil before going up.

If your students never plan to fly any plane besides the one that they were
trained it, it MIGHT be OK to abbreviate the checklist to cover only those
items that are "applicable" to their plane.

But if you want to train someone to be a good pilot, you build good habits,
which may include checking things that are easy to "assume".

JMHO..

BoDEAN wrote in
:

How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152

For many years I've observed many (most?) who are accustomed to flying
without checklists ...

3/4 don't check the brakes when they first start to taxi - another 3/4 don't
verify they can draw fuel from BOTH tanks prior to runups - 1/2 don't switch
on the beacon - 1/2 don't check the vacuum - the list goes on an on. The
problem is the pilots fly the plane the way they were taught by a person who
flys it the way they were taught and so on - in many cases these instructors
have developed lazy / undiciplined habits over the years - which get passed
on to the next person.

By using checklists (and getting used to using checklists) nothing EVER gets
forgotten - and habits are well formed when pilots transition to higher
performance aircraft (where transitioning pilots may initially be 2 miles
behind the aircraft - and checklists become more important than ever).






"Judah" wrote in message
...
These guys are probably the same ones that tell you that since it's a
school plane, you can use the "abbreviated preflight checklist" and just
check for fuel and oil before going up.

If your students never plan to fly any plane besides the one that they
were
trained it, it MIGHT be OK to abbreviate the checklist to cover only those
items that are "applicable" to their plane.

But if you want to train someone to be a good pilot, you build good
habits,
which may include checking things that are easy to "assume".

JMHO..

BoDEAN wrote in
:

How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152

I learned that on my checkride...

After a fairly smooth Oral exam, we go out and preflight the plane. We get
in the plane and it is time to go.

It was December, and cold, so the Line Guys had the engine pre-heated and
(mistakenly) told me to use the Hot Start checklist. It was an old plane,
and always gave trouble hot starting. Different instructors and line guys
all had their own "tricks" that they used to get it started.

Of course, that day, none of the tricks I tried worked. And after a few
tries, the DE failed me on the spot. I said that I thought if there was a
mechanical failure of the plane, it should be a reschedule, not a fail. The
DE said that I failed to use the checklist to start the plane, and had I
properly used the checklist, it probably would have started, and even if it
didn't I would not have failed. He also explained to me why what I did
probably caused a vapor lock...

I learned that day that the tricks and secrets that different people have
are probably just old wives tales, and if I want to fly properly, I stick
to the approved checklist in the POH.

And furthermore, that way, if something goes wrong, I have no one to blame
but the manufacturer or the A&P...

Fortunately, the next day, I had no trouble starting the plane, and no
trouble passing my test... And as far as learning that valuable lesson, I
feel lucky that I didn't have to learn that lesson the 'hard way'
(disappointing as it was)...



"Kiwi Jet Jock" wrote in
:

For many years I've observed many (most?) who are accustomed to flying
without checklists ...

3/4 don't check the brakes when they first start to taxi - another 3/4
don't verify they can draw fuel from BOTH tanks prior to runups - 1/2
don't switch on the beacon - 1/2 don't check the vacuum - the list goes
on an on. The problem is the pilots fly the plane the way they were
taught by a person who flys it the way they were taught and so on - in
many cases these instructors have developed lazy / undiciplined habits
over the years - which get passed on to the next person.

By using checklists (and getting used to using checklists) nothing EVER
gets forgotten - and habits are well formed when pilots transition to
higher performance aircraft (where transitioning pilots may initially
be 2 miles behind the aircraft - and checklists become more important
than ever).






"Judah" wrote in message
...
These guys are probably the same ones that tell you that since it's a
school plane, you can use the "abbreviated preflight checklist" and
just check for fuel and oil before going up.

If your students never plan to fly any plane besides the one that they
were trained it, it MIGHT be OK to abbreviate the checklist to cover
only those items that are "applicable" to their plane.

But if you want to train someone to be a good pilot, you build good
habits, which may include checking things that are easy to "assume".

JMHO..

BoDEAN wrote in
:

How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist
when doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I
work with use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152

full before landing checklist when doing pattern work?

My view is that when in the pattern, you're better off looking for
traffic than reading a list. For more complex aircraft, CCGUMPS gets
everything. I also ask for a Red, Blue, Green check on base and
final.

I also ask for a Red, Blue, Green check on base and final.

Whazzat?

And what's the CC in CCGumps?
--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Red, Green, Blue...Whazzat?

Red=Mixture, Blue=Prop, Green=3 green

And what's the CC in CCGumps?

Carb heat, Cowl Flaps