Best cross country ship class

Hardly anyone will take any notice of what I advise, but FWIW:

I am probably too old fashioned, but I think that somebody as little
experienced as the OP should learn to walk in something of
medium performance before running in a champion-class glider. I
am confident that many (most?) UK Chief Flying Instructors would
not let such an early pilot fly an advanced glider so soon. Ymmv.

Re what is the best glider, all such choices are compromises of one
sort or another. For most people, who are not going to be world or
national champions, a Lak 17b with FES in a Lak trailer, with one-
person rigging aids, is (I believe) substantially cheaper than an -27
etc., and would be good enough to give -27s, -29s and V2s etc. a
run for their money in equally skilled hands. In addition, it would
save needing a retrieve crew on most if not all occasions, enable
cross-country flights on days one otherwise wouldn’t, and give
more flying in less total hours per day devoted to it. And that would
greatly benefit a tyro pilot trying to gain experience to emulate the
top exponents, cheaper and faster than almost any other way.

IMHO.

Chris N

I would like to add my $0.02 to what Chris stated. I jumped into soaring with both feet early last year. I realized very quickly that, in the club environment,owning my own glider would give me the opportunity to fly more and fly longer. I also realized that, being a very new pilot, I needed a safe and relatively uncomplicated ship. After some research, I purchased a PW-5. For less than the cost of a mid-priced new car, I was able to buy a very clean, low time, well instrumented sailplane with a beautiful trailer.

Because the PW-5 is a very nice handling ship with no nasty habits, my instructors had enough confidence in me and my ship to sign me off to fly the PW-5 post solo but pre license.

Now, after getting my "ticket" in Marfa last February with Burt Compton (thanks Burt!), the PW-5 is greatly helping me increase my flying and soaring skills.

Do I still drool over slicker ships with more wings - yep. Will I purchase a top level sailplane in the future - I certainly hope so. Will my wife sign off on the investment..........well, that is going to take some effort

Until then, I intend to fly the hell out of the PW-5 and enjoy every minute..

Lou

On Monday, October 21, 2013 7:09:25 PM UTC-5, Chris Nicholas wrote:
Hardly anyone will take any notice of what I advise, but FWIW:



I am probably too old fashioned, but I think that somebody as little

experienced as the OP should learn to walk in something of

medium performance before running in a champion-class glider. I

am confident that many (most?) UK Chief Flying Instructors would

not let such an early pilot fly an advanced glider so soon. Ymmv.



Re what is the best glider, all such choices are compromises of one

sort or another. For most people, who are not going to be world or

national champions, a Lak 17b with FES in a Lak trailer, with one-

person rigging aids, is (I believe) substantially cheaper than an -27

etc., and would be good enough to give -27s, -29s and V2s etc. a

run for their money in equally skilled hands. In addition, it would

save needing a retrieve crew on most if not all occasions, enable

cross-country flights on days one otherwise wouldn’t, and give

more flying in less total hours per day devoted to it. And that would

greatly benefit a tyro pilot trying to gain experience to emulate the

top exponents, cheaper and faster than almost any other way.



IMHO.



Chris N

There has been quite a bit of very good advice on this issue. For what
it is worth, having faced a similar decision in the past transitioning
with low hours from club materiel to a private glider (ASW24E in my
case), here is how I see it:

Buy a glider you will be happy to fly. Everybody has their own view of
what this may be, so take the time to form your own opinion. Choosing a
glider is a very personal journey.

A glider, when well-cared for will keep its value, so it will be
realistic to change if you feel after some time that you want something
else. Having said that, it is better to buy what you want now, rather
than move up to it slowly provided it is a suitable choice (i.e. open
class could be tricky as a first glider).

Here are the main points I would like to consider:

You can have incredible fun in a classic wooden glider (and it is good
to remind yourself once in a while by taking a few flights in one), but
if it is cross-country you fancy, going for slick fiber is what you
probably want. Having said that, if you can have access to such glider,
it would be nice to be able to take your first cross-country steps in
one. The confidence one gets with being able to land practically
anywhere with these low-speed low-wing-loading machines is awesome.

When considering old versus new glass, there is some incredible value to
be had in some of the great older models out there (ASW20, LS4, Discus
etc), but you will have to carefully evaluate what you buy. If it is
well maintained and has gel-coat in top condition, do not fear. However,
buying a glider with gel-coat in bad or simply unknown condition could
become a heap of expensive trouble very fast (and would be difficult to
resell at good value).

The good thing with the newer models is that they will usually be more
trouble-free to maintain. It is also the case that most newer models
have a safety cockpit, which to me is a very crucial feature to
consider, as well as other safety-related features such as
self-connecting controls which are harder to find the more back you go.

I would not be fazed by the flaps/non-flaps issue, this is a matter of
style in the models we are discussing (although if flying in areas with
very strong weather it can make a difference). Nor would I obsess over a
few points of L/D. It will probably take quite some time before such
things start making a difference in your performance if at all. For most
of us pilots, what flies the farthest is the glider we feel happiest
flying in.

What could make a difference is the quirkiness of some older models --
although to my knowledge the gliders being discussed here are excellent
in terms of handling. It is typical of newer models (even the hottest
racing machines) in 15 to 18m wingspan that they are a joy and easy to
fly, devoid of strange flight behavior or quirky handling requirements.

What will be different is that they are slippery and much heavier than
what you have been used to flying (even if you have been training in
glass). This means that everything will happen much faster and that
energy management will have to be more precise. There is nothing
inherently difficult or exotic in this. It just takes a few flights to
get used to it, so by all means consider a trip to a site will an
appropriate training fleet as part of your purchase process and take the
time needed to acclimatize to this new environment.

One last thing I have learned the hard way: it is better to invest in
the best trailer you can buy and spend the balance on the glider rather
than the opposite. Your trailer setup will probably have the most
influence on how often you fly, or how far away you dare venture. Make
it a good one.

Have fun and be safe,

Alexander


On 16/10/2013 00:29, Seattle wrote:
I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.

An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.

All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?

Thanks!

I think you should fly a 1-26 for a year or two. I hate it when green pilots confuse the level of performance with the level of fun...

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 10:09:51 AM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote:
I hate it when green pilots confuse the level of performance with the level of fun...
WaveG,
Why do you hate this so much? Do you just let it simmer or do you get up into peoples faces? (Kidding!) I think alot of this depends on where a guy is flying. As a newly minted Pilot I loved boating around the coastal mountains of California in a 1-26 and 1-36. There were days during the Winter where 1-26es and hang gliders were the only things that would stay up. In strong desert conditions they were not so much fun. I bought a 20 for my 1st ship and found it very straight forward to fly. There have been pilots on the Yahoo group who have made the transition with as little as 35 hours (Disclaimer; Be VERY diligent about checking yourself out). After 9 seasons I transitioned to a 27 and it is in most respects easier to fly. With all due respect as a loud mouthed ugly American (Kidding again, thats from the hand on the release thread that got out of control) I think we are confusing the OP. Both of the ships he mentioned would be fantastic XC ships for beginners or veterans. I would follow BB's advise and head to Williams for some transition training and see if the 27 suits your ambitions. Lastly, One of my mentors suggested I buy an old beater for my 1st ship in case I damage it. I ignored this and bought a very clean plane and yes, I did have to buff out some scrapes and repaint the bottom of the nose once (Thats what the off season is for). It's just part of soaring and if you are worried about this go fly power.

Is it unusual over there to share gliders? Soon after getting my Silver in a club glider I bought a half share of a Discus shared with an experienced XC pilot. He became a personal mentor and helped me a lot both to progress my XC flying and to learn about glider ownership. I have always enjoyed sharing a glider.

Could you not buy a flapped glider and just leave the flaps in their most neutral setting for a year or so - ?

On Tuesday, May 12, 2015 at 3:32:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Could you not buy a flapped glider and just leave the flaps in their most neutral setting for a year or so - ?

Sure, and you could buy a 5-speed car and drive everywhere in 3rd!

Mike

On 5/12/2015 4:32 PM, wrote:
Could you not buy a flapped glider and just leave the flaps in their most
neutral setting for a year or so - ?

This question'll likely trigger a small gamut of replies!

Having never owned or flown any high performance single seaters that did NOT
have flaps, here's my take. (Hidden assumption: the question refers to only
performance-enhancing camber-changing flaps, and not to large-deflection
landing flaps. So does my feedback...)

Indeed you could - and with very little loss of performance between the
performance you'll achieve by so doing, and what the ship is theoretically
capable of for a given speed. (Work out some numbers from the Johnson flight
test reports if you don't believe me.) Conceptually, it would be no different
from deciding to not retract retractable landing gear until one became
"sufficiently comfortable" in their new ship. Just because a ship has
features, nothing says Joe Pilot has to operate every feature on the first
flight...or on ANY flight. (Think water ballast, radio, flight computers, tail
parachute...)

That noted, it's been my experience when this issue comes up around the
gliderport that the person asking often has some concern about feeling
"overloaded" or "too busy" or some such to want to "have to fiddle
continuously" with a flap handle. What I've always tried to point out to them
is how they feel on their initial flights will rapidly change as the ship's
newness wears off and they gain familiarity with it. So if a pilot is
otherwise enamored of the concept of camber-changing flaps for whatever their
personal reason(s), my advice has always been to buy whatever flapped ship
they wish, and treat it as an unflapped one until such time as they're
comfortable "messing with" flaps.

Undoubtedly someone will point out that: 1) negative flaps aid low-speed
aileron control (generally true) and that to NOT mess with them on initial
tows is being dangerously irresponsible (an overstatement, IMHO), or some
similar sentiment, and 2) positive landing flaps decrease
stall/potential-touchdown speed (unarguably true).

As for 1), presuming one chooses "sensible weather conditions" for their
first-flight, this is arguably a rather fine point indeed. Against the day you
eventually fly ANY new-to-you single seater, my advice is to work actively on
improving one's wing-leveling skills/ability (many pilots are surprisingly
sloppy in this regard), do a good brief with the tug pilot and wing runner,
and go launch using the configuration with which you're the most comfortable.

Regarding 2) I find it easy to argue either to move the flap handle one time
(during your pre-pattern checklist) to "landing flap" and thereafter to
mentally put that behind you, fly the pattern using spoilers as you would in
an unflapped ship, and land, or alternatively, so simply fly the pattern and
land with 0-flap. The theoretical higher speed will be a non-issue for all
practical purposes, if you've been sensible about all the rest of your
first-flight airfield/weather conditions.

Nuances aside, "messing with flaps" is really something of a minor nit,
compared to everything else mentally a glider pilot must do on every flight.
Stated another way, the theoretical concern will - in hindsight - probably
have loomed MUCH larger than the practical reality. Piloting skill, not flaps,
keeps you in the air.

Have fun ship shopping!

Bob W.

P.S. If you buy a flapped ship, I predict a LOT less than a year will pass
before you're of a mind to begin using the flaps as the designer intended.

What are the pilots around you flying?

If everyone else flies 15m class & you buy standard you'll have to push
really hard to fly with / against them & will land out a lot.

If everybody else flies standard class & you buy 15m class then you won't
be pushing yourself at all, and it's pushing yourself (a little) that will
improve your soaring.

Neither of the above scenarios are good in your early years.
(Or later years for that matter)

And it's in the nature of the sport that you WILL want to fly with /
against the pilots around you.

With any glider from the LS4 to the JS1 the limiting factor is likely to be
you not the aircraft.

Regards

KN