New low budget two seater

On 6/19/2018 3:46 AM, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 5:17:39 PM UTC+1, BobW wrote:

While we're waiting for a new low-budget two-seater, is there a 2-33 available
for rent at Bitterwasser? I'd *love* to see how far she could go, there!


I suspect Gollywompers are treated as in invasive species in most countries. I've never seen one outside of the USA or Canada!

Mike


Hey!!! Dragmaster="invasive species" + app: additional low budget two seater
problem solved?

Bob - no need to thank me! - W.


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On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 11:25:05 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 7:11:08 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 2:48:48 PM UTC-4, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
I've just started a Facebook page to discuss and promote the idea of an open-source crowd-sourced two-seat primary trainer certified as SLSA or whatever makes it eligible for commercial ride, instruction, and rental use.. I envision something about halfway between the ASK13 and ASK21 in performance and complexity, and designed to fill in for the declining 2-33 population.

I'm not extremely optimistic about this effort, but as one of the few sailplane developers with a vested interest in the future of soaring in the US I thought I'd get the conversation going and see where it leads.

https://www.facebook.com/SoarOpenTrainer


I've not completely given up on R.A.S. just yet, so I'll ask my question here. Why would this project produce two place trainers that were less expensive than the PW-6 built in Poland? BTW, the PW-6 performance is very close to the ASK21, I assume it would have better performance than the SoarOpenTrainer.

How much does a new ready-to-fly PW-6 cost now including import duties and tariffs?

They sell for less than 70000, but you have to add cost of trailer (about 10000 for Avionic), freight over the Atlantic, and of course taxes.

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 4:24:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I think a new "low budget two seater" is not really existing. At the "low end" of the production two-seat gliders, you have:

PW-6U (http://www.szdjezow.com.pl/) - not sure it is still in production, relatively low performance, good for spin training.

Perkoz (http://szd.com.pl/fr/products/szd-54-2-perkoz) - in production, good performance, good for spin training, adaptable for uncertifed hand controls.

ASK-21 (https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/...gzeuge/ask-21/) - in production, relatively low performance, spin training only with special mod, adaptable for certified hand controls.

DG-1001 Club (https://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/en/air...01/dg-1001club) - in production, good performance, good for spin training.

At ~$80kEURO (plus trailer, shipping and instruments) the Perkoz is the closest thing there is to a "low budget two-seater" these days. The next best option IMHO is the DG-1001 Club Nuo with a fixed gear and similarly the K-21. While non of these are cheap, a handful of clubs have looked at their aging fleet and ponied up to buy one or two new ships while the dollar is relatively strong. Plan for the future. Consider who your new customers will be and what they're looking for in a fleet. So far, anecdotally at least, clubs who recently purchased K-21's have no regrets and are seeing high utilization rates. The next major challenge to growth and retention is the lack of instructors, especially instructors qualified to instruct advanced concepts such as dual XC.

- Chris Schrader

Not true Jonathan, you yanks (or septics, seppos .. neither of which is meant by us aussies as derogatory ..) have created plenty of derogatory terms for non-Americans over the years (I won't name them all but I can think of about half a dozen straight away) so America can't claim moral superiority with that.

And those terms are just as inappropriate in a friendly discussion about gliders as the one quoted!

America has created some wonderful technology (you can keep your McDonalds & Starbucks!) but sometimes (to an outsider) it does seem that Americans (generalising here ..) tend to be a little boastful & blind to the achievements/sometimes better systems of the rest of the world ... the metric system being one of them!

P.S. the Wright bothers thing is very debatable! The Wright brothers had good lawyers & publicity.

Definitely not low-budget, but it looks like the venerable ASK-21 has gotten an upgrade to the ASK-21B.

https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/...on-der-ask-21/

On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 10:47:08 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
Definitely not low-budget, but it looks like the venerable ASK-21 has gotten an upgrade to the ASK-21B.

https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/...on-der-ask-21/

Kudos to Alexander Schleicher. They made the ASK 21 even better with the "B" Model. Got rid of the L'Hotelier fittings. Now Aileron and Airbrake connections are automatic during assembly. The front instrument panel now tilts up for easier entry of Ride customers. Spin Kit is looks easier to use. Would love to have one of these in our fleet.

Chuck Zabinski
Finger Lakes Soariing Club

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 1:35:01 AM UTC-6, Gal wrote:
Hi!
We are trying to get new two seater from various funds for our club. Most of the funds force to buy new glider.
Can you please help us a little bit with market research and suggest low budget two seater?
Thank you all!

Pardon my cynical attitude, but I don't expect this to cost any less than the older version, and in fact would be surprised if it didn't cost more. These kind of gliders need to be more affordable. /[Rant]

At 06:07 14 July 2018, John Foster wrote:
On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 1:35:01 AM UTC-6, Gal wrote:
Hi!
We are trying to get new two seater from various funds for our club.
Most
of the funds force to buy new glider.
Can you please help us a little bit with market research and suggest
low
budget two seater?
Thank you all!

Pardon my cynical attitude, but I don't expect this to cost any less than
the older version, and in fact would be surprised if it didn't cost more.

These kind of gliders need to be more affordable. /[Rant]


Then you find a way of producing them more affordably instead of siting on

your arse ranting. Don't think most sailplane manufacturers are making
vast profits.

American clubs need to bite the bullet and start renewing our fleet or we will continue to shrink. 100k for a glider shared across the membership and amortized isn't that much. An ASK21 is a steal compared to a c172.

Your question is sorta like automotive performance parts......"cheap, fast, reliable....pick two".

A lot depends on your version of "low budget". Some peeps think $150K US is low budget, others cringe seeing a $20K US used price.

I have no clue, a number of thoughts presented thus far.