We're getting old, folks...

Jay Honeck wrote:

That's 300% higher than the "ballpark" figure for around here.

I disbelieve you. My Cessna cost me half that ten years ago.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

That's 300% higher than the "ballpark" figure for around here.

I disbelieve you. My Cessna cost me half that ten years ago.

Whoops -- sorry. I may have mis-read his post.

I thought he was posting his cost of learning to fly. Upon re-reading, it
does appear that $12K was his annual expense to *fly* -- which might include
aircraft maintenance.

In which case, $12K isn't far off the mark, in a bad year.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

I thought he was posting his cost of learning to fly.

Well, even there you're really low-balling to claim an average below $4,000. It
cost me over $5,000 back in the late 80s, and things are a lot higher now around
here.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

In article R7Lqf.645848$_o.497629@attbi_s71,
Jay Honeck wrote:
That's 300% higher than the "ballpark" figure for around here.


Whoops -- sorry. I may have mis-read his post.

I thought he was posting his cost of learning to fly. Upon re-reading, it
does appear that $12K was his annual expense to *fly* -- which might include
aircraft maintenance.

You had it right the first time. That's what it cost me to learn to fly.
I could have probably squeezed it in around $9-$10K, had I not decided
to switch to newer-model 172's in the second half of the training (I just
got tired of all of the flaky equipment in the older 172s the flight
school had ... nothing unsafe, but just annoying).

So, you said that's 3x what your ballpark is where you are (in other
words, people in your area should expect to pay around $4000 to get
their private pilot). Is that the "ideal" figure, e.g., 40 hours in a
152, or is that what the average person who isn't a natural pilot
(e.g., me) actually pay? I think by the time I got my private I had
over 80 hours; clearly that was a factor, but I thought that the
national averagge was something like 75 hours. I'm geniunely curious.

--Ken

First, my wife does not like flying.

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard this from a pilot, I'd be rich.

What *is* it with you guys, all hanging around with gals who don't like to
fly?

(This started out being a joke-question, but upon reflection, I think I'll
leave off the "smiley"... It's a damned serious question, really, and gets
to the root of why so many guys ultimately quit flying...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

What *is* it with you guys, all hanging around with gals who don't like to
fly?

There are a variety of reasons - one of them is that the pool of gals
who =do= like to fly is very small. This reduces the chances of finding
one which whom a long term relationship will work for any given person.

There really =is= more to life than flying (although there may not be
more to life than getting high A rewarding, long term, loving
relationship consists of many many facets. When I was younger I had a
girlfriend who wasn't really interested in singing. I was (I was
singing in three choirs at the time). She happily came to my concerts
and enjoyed listening, but to have her come and sit in the alto section
while I was singing tenor just didn't do it for her. I talked to
another choir member (whose husband was actually tone-deaf - music to
him was like an intellectual puzzle of random notes) about this, and she
said that in the end it just didn't matter. Not that it mattered but
they got over it, but that it ultimately =didn't= =matter=. Marriage
and that kind of loving relationship is much bigger than music.

Well, I eventually got married, and you know what, she was right. It
just =doesn't= =matter=. There are many things much more important in
how one shares a life together.

My wife isn't too keen on flying either. When we were dating, she put
up with it. We had some good times, but it wasn't really her thing.
When we got married, she stopped flying. She didn't stop me from
flying, but she wasn't interested - she'd rather drive halfway across
the country or take a commercial jet. This plus the financial load of
starting a household pretty much meant that I also stopped flying.
What's the point of flying alone across the country, and then meeting
your wife on a commercial flight?

Well, that went on for ten years, while she went through whatever she
had to go through, and finally I just decided that I would fly again.
So I trained again at the local rent-a-wreck, got current and certified,
and found somebody with a nice plane to rent. On my first solo flight
in that plane, my wife wanted to see where the plane was. Then she
wanted to see the plane. Then she wanted to see the inside (it was
really nice - back in 01 or so it had the Garmin 430 and new leather
seats). So, she decided to come with me on that flight, and she enjoyed
playing with the passenger entertainment device (that's what I call the
moving map). She started flying again, but only on short trips, like to
Block Island, which we both enjoy and to which we can't reasonably get
to absent aviation. Little by little we got to longer trips, and in the
end she's going five hours over mountains with me. She's even taken the
pinch hitter course our club offers and landed the plane by herself
(that course has made her more involved in aviation, and therefore more
interested in the flights)

If I had to choose between her and the plane, I'd choose her in a
second. It was always that way.

Jay, you are lucky. You have a wife that likes to fly, while flying is
very important to you. But if something happened and she could no
longer fly, or was no longer willing to, how would that affect your
relationship with her, and with your Pathfinder?

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jay, you are lucky. You have a wife that likes to fly, while flying is
very important to you. But if something happened and she could no longer
fly, or was no longer willing to, how would that affect your relationship
with her, and with your Pathfinder?

One of the main advantages of us both being pilots is that it is extremely
unlikely that we will BOTH lose our medicals, and have to quit flying
altogether.

Is there anything that could make Mary unwilling to fly? I don't know, but
it would have to be either medical (inner ear trouble, for example) or
psychological (fear of flying after an incident, for example). Either way,
I would work very hard to help her through it.

Flying alone would take away at least 50% of the fun of flying. The main
advantage of owning and flying an airplane, to me anyway, is the ability to
transport my family to far-away places quickly and in great comfort. If all
I could was bore holes in the sky by myself, I would become quickly bored.

At that stage I would probably sell Atlas, buy a Decathlon, and get into
recreational aerobatic flying.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Is there anything that could make Mary unwilling to fly?

Of course there is. You named a few examples, but even if you couldn't
think of any, Nature would oblige.

Medical: besides inner ear, there are vascular conditions, tumors,
nerve issues, urinary conditions, disorienting eye conditions, a
plethora of things that could make it uncomfortable, inadvisable, or
even dangerous to fly, even as a passenger...

Psychological: the obvious fear after an incident, but also an old
association coming back, changed values in a risk-reward equation, a
newfound joy in driving in traffic (or an accompanying need for time for
solitary reflection), a new hobby (winemaking, for example), the stress
of taking care of other issues, for which flying does not provide an
outlet...

Legal (the following may seem silly until you've actually been faced
with other, equally silly things that have the force of law): A law or
insurance regulation prohibiting two or more corporate officers from
flying together, Mary getting on the terrorist no-fly list (if it can
happen to a United States Senator, it can happen to you)...

Social: taking care of an elderly parent who does not want her to fly
(and who becomes much harder to deal with if she does fly), a social (or
business) calendar that pretty much requires her to stay in her home
town, a new lack of allure for distant places...

Economic:... I could go on, but won't, because it doesn't matter.

Either way, I would work very hard to help her through it.

What does this mean? If she =wanted= to fly but was unable to because
of some conditons, this may help. But if the condition is such that she
no longer =wants= to fly, then "helping her through it" really means
"helping her see it my way" (the One True Way), and is likely to have
Unintended Consequences.

But it doesn't matter =why= she couldn't or wouldn't fly any more. Take
that as a given. She won't. How does this affect your relationship
with her? With flying?

Now suppose whatever it was that happened, happened while you were
dating. Would you dump her and go looking for another girl at some hangar?

The main
advantage of owning and flying an airplane, to me anyway, is the ability to
transport my family to far-away places quickly and in great comfort. If all
I could was bore holes in the sky by myself, I would become quickly bored.

This is interesting coming from somebody who, not too long ago, was
touting aviation as the be-all and the end-all of life. To many people,
flying in an airplane is just boring holes in the sky. Going places
quickly ends up being not so quick when you add in the time spent flight
planning, preflighting (and preheating), dealing with distant FBOs, and
then add in all the hidden time (keeping current, for example). You get
to rearrange when you spend time, but the time savings in a spam can is
somewhat illusory.

At that stage I would probably sell Atlas, buy a Decathlon, and get into
recreational aerobatic flying.

Recreational aerobatic flying is also just boring holes in the sky.
Twisty holes to be sure, but holes nonetheless. And it could be that
Mary (reasonably) would not want you to partake of this (more dangerous)
part of aviation. I suppose it's not likely coming from the motorcycle
crowd, but it's possible (just imagine a slightly different Mary for
purposes of argument).

Same question.

To answer your original question, there is much more to human
relationships than sharing a cockpit, and love, if it's worth anything,
trumps flying. It certainly trumps "the ability to transport my family
to far-away places quickly and in great comfort".

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:

There are a variety of reasons - one of them is that the pool of gals
who =do= like to fly is very small.

I met and married my wife long before I took my first lesson. But she
encouraged me through mine, and now I get to encourage her through hers.
So I didn't find a "gal that likes to fly"; I made one.

[I hope I do as well with my sons. The eldest's birth was early, causing me
to postpone my IR checkride. The youngest's birth was early, causing me to
postpone my long commercial XC. But perhaps that's just kids being kids,
and not reflective of their opinions regarding aviation laugh.]

Similarly, I know someone that met and married his wife before he took his
first lesson. She encouraged him through his, and then hated to fly with
him. At first, I thought it her issue. But then I experienced something
that caused me to refuse to fly with him.

I'm not saying that every person with a spouse that won't fly does things as
dangerously as that someone I know. But how careful are we to let our
spouses in, at their own speed, to this enterprise of ours?

I was speaking to a wife of a lapsed pilot recently. We were discussing the
idea of his picking up flying again. She seemed - at best - disinterested.
But after I described some of the (short by the standards of this group
{8^) trips on which I've taken my family (ie. Nantucket for lunch, which is
my favorite example for this purpose {8^), she became suddenly
enthusiastic.

With a little care, I suspect that utility carries a lot of weight. I know
that I still point out ugly road traffic over which we're flying to my
wife: "See what we're not in?".

- Andrew

Jose wrote:

My wife isn't too keen on flying either. When we were dating, she put
up with it. We had some good times, but it wasn't really her thing.
When we got married, she stopped flying.

I hear it works the same with sex.

There must be a lesson there.


Jack