Claus-Dieter Zink takes measures against Lowlands Cup team

Hi everyone,

Perhaps some of you already know the soaring simulator Condor. With around
1000 members Condor is becoming a really nice community. Every evening many
people fly against eachother in several different servers with challenging
tasks from 100 to sometimes 300km. These tasks are not only a lot of fun,
but they are also very educational since many pro's are helping and giving
tips to others.
On Thursday and Sunday evening there is a Lowlands Cup competition, which is
set up by several volunteers. Around 300 to 400 pilots are competing against
eachother in a friendly and educational way. Click the following link to
view the Lowlands Cup website: http://lowlands.sytes.net/

Let's get straight to the point now... Well known glider photographer
Claus-Dieter Zink has taken measures against the Lowlands Cup team because
the team had used a photograph originally taken by Mr. Zink for in their
banner on the Lowlands Cup website. The team did ask permission to use this
image, but never received a reply. Without even a warning or a request to
have the image removed, Mr. Zink immediately took legal action against the
Lowlands Cup team.
Well, I think this is the part where I should ask you to read the topic on
the Condor website at this link:
http://forum.condorsoaring.com/viewt... asc&highlight

On behalf of the whole Condor community I would like to ask you to please
read the topic at the Condor forum and give your support. Also, after I read
that topic, I'll think twice before I will buy a calendar of Mr. Zink
again....

Regards,
Peter Millenaar,
Condor community.

As a general statement without reference to the particulars of the specific
situation Peter Millenaar reports below about which I don't know enough to
comment, I'm always struck by the sense of entitlement that those who
appropriate the copyrighted work of others feel and the degree to which they
feel unfairly singled out by the consequences.

Raphael Warshaw
Claremont, CA
1LK

"Peter Millenaar" wrote in message
...
Hi everyone,

Perhaps some of you already know the soaring simulator Condor. With around

Raphael Warshaw wrote:

...I'm always struck by the sense of entitlement that those who
appropriate the copyrighted work of others feel and the degree
to which they feel unfairly singled out by the consequences.

Perhaps Herr Zink should learn not to leave important things lying about.


Jack

Jack wrote:

Perhaps Herr Zink should learn not to leave important things lying about.

I don't follow.

Ray Warshaw

wrote:

Jack wrote:

Perhaps Herr Zink should learn not to leave important things lying about.

I don't follow.

Ray,

If he wishes to guard his images so jealously, then he has much to learn
about how to post them on the web so that they cannot be useful to
anyone else.

Zink sounds like a great guy, alright. What is his point in harassing
people, in a case where he lost nothing and he stands to gain nothing? I
wonder if he has photo-releases from all the glider owners and pilots in
his published photos?

see: http://194.78.210.186:80/

Instead of working to increase his sales by cooperating, he has now cut
off numerous potential sales by his selfish and uncooperative attitude.


Jack

Seems to me that the copyright notice should have been sufficient. If
you borrow my car without my permission and return it undamaged and
with a full tank of fuel, it's still grand theft auto.

The images are the PROPERTY of the photographer, and, when protected by
copyright, cannot be used without his permission. Last year I needed
an image for a non-commercial poster. The late Neil Lawson supplied a
great one for a pittance, far less than what it cost him in time and
effort to provide. The terms were one-time use and it was reproduced
with the White Planes Picture Company copyright notice, thereby
crediting the artist and protecting his interests.

BTW, I don't know how it works elsewhere, but in the US, other than for
explicitly commercial purposes such as advertising, pictures taken in
the public commons don't require releases.

Ray Warshaw
1LK



Jack wrote:
wrote:

Jack wrote:

Perhaps Herr Zink should learn not to leave important things lying about.

I don't follow.

Ray,

If he wishes to guard his images so jealously, then he has much to learn
about how to post them on the web so that they cannot be useful to
anyone else.

Zink sounds like a great guy, alright. What is his point in harassing
people, in a case where he lost nothing and he stands to gain nothing? I
wonder if he has photo-releases from all the glider owners and pilots in
his published photos?

see: http://194.78.210.186:80/

Instead of working to increase his sales by cooperating, he has now cut
off numerous potential sales by his selfish and uncooperative attitude.


Jack

A valuable lesson. Learn from it..!

I wouldn't call you a thief, nor any other kind of
criminal. I'd just say you were a bit daft, beleiving
that an attempt to contact CDZ gave you the right to
assume it would be OK.

It would have only been OK with his writen permission
and I'm sure CDZ has good reasons for not replying,
however a simple 'no' would have saved a whole bunch
of grief.

Good luck.

Al

At 11:36 30 December 2005, Ronald Termaat wrote:
Some clarification.

Yes, we are wrong because we used a picture without
checking the
source/copyright. We just found it with Google and
it was not coming
from the site of CDZ. Up till now we did not even found
the picture
back on his website.

But the moment we found out that it was possibly a
picture of CDZ we
tried to contact him and ask for permission and support.
No reply.
A mail discussion started with somebody who claimed
to talk in the name
of CDZ (even wrote: CDZ is standing right next to me
at the moment) who
wrote (after some unpleasant mails), it is ok. During
this conversation
we again tried to contact CDZ (email and phone) but
no response.
Because the Lowlandscup is for fun and promotion of
gliding and
strictly non profit we had no reason to believe that
it would hurt CDZ,
or his business and that of course he would not have
any objection in
using the picture. Boy, we were wrong!
We received a letter from his lawyer demanding to pay
an amount of 1400
Euros for copyright infringement. Again we tried to
reach Mr. Zink
(email, phone and 3 different faxnumbers) trying to
settle this in a
mature way. The only response we received from him,
via the lawyer, was
that we committed a crime and he doesn't want to deal
with thieves.

The only option available to us was seek assistance
in the
glidingcommunity. We are spending a lot of time making
the Lowlandscup
work, and we get no money for it at all. We do not
have the funds to
pay for the claim of CDZ.

The picture we used is already removed and replaced
by a picture
offered by the German C-kader (German Juniors team).

I'm flying for more than 25 years, have participated
in everything from
Juniors up till Worldchampionships. It was always a
pleasure to meet
new people from all over the world, and we have made
many new friends.
All these people shared the joy of soaring.
The words from the website of CDZ: 'Mit Freundlichem
Fliegergruss'
(with friendly soaring greetings) seems to me not very
well chosen. We
tried to correct our mistake, mr Zink only contacted
his lawyer and
never contacted us.

Sorry Mr. Zink, this is not how we handle with issues
in the
glidercommunity!
And I also rather not be called a thief anymore...

Ronald Termaat
XT

Hi All,

It was not the attempt to contact CDZ, it was the statement from the
person who spoke in the name of CDZ saying it was ok. To be sure we
also copied CDZ in this mailconversation. Now the claim from the lawyer
is that he was not an official spokesperson.

A simple NO (or maybe even 'no thanks') would have been enough. We did
something for the glidingcommunity and made a mistake by using a small
picture found on the Internet (not on cdz site). Not any way of
communication was possible with Mr Zink to settle this. Only paying
1400 Euro's. Not really a nice way of settling an issue.

Indeed two lessons learned:
1. Always check what you use.
2. All people in the gliding community are friendly, but some are more
friendly than others (original similar statements from G.Orwell)

Ronald Termaat wrote:
Hi All,

It was not the attempt to contact CDZ, it was the statement from the
person who spoke in the name of CDZ saying it was ok. To be sure we
also copied CDZ in this mailconversation. Now the claim from the lawyer
is that he was not an official spokesperson.

A simple NO (or maybe even 'no thanks') would have been enough. We did
something for the glidingcommunity and made a mistake by using a small
picture found on the Internet (not on cdz site). Not any way of
communication was possible with Mr Zink to settle this. Only paying
1400 Euro's. Not really a nice way of settling an issue.

Indeed two lessons learned:
1. Always check what you use.
2. All people in the gliding community are friendly, but some are more
friendly than others (original similar statements from G.Orwell)


Perhaps you are still not dealing with an "official spokesman", despite
the claim the letter is from Mr. Zink's lawyer. Maybe Mr. Zink is not
and has not ever been involved in the situation, because his employees
(?) are not informing him.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 13:57:30 UTC, "Ronald Termaat"
wrote:

: It was not the attempt to contact CDZ, it was the statement from the
: person who spoke in the name of CDZ saying it was ok. To be sure we
: also copied CDZ in this mailconversation. Now the claim from the lawyer
: is that he was not an official spokesperson.

Sounds like a potentially strong defence to me. What does your lawyer
say? Have you tried writing to the man with a cheque for 100 euros in
full settlement?

Ian
:


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