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#51
September 29th 06, 02:56 AM
posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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The SSA-OLC
Doug Haluza wrote:
Sunset time is only calculated to the nearest minute, because the seconds are considered meaningless precision. The exact time is available to the pilot pre-flight, for a day, or a table for a whole year, so there is no need for a fudge factor. Here is the link to the USNO page for determining sunset: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html#forma Sunset is also available in-flight from sources already used by the most cross-country pilots, such as flight software like SeeYou Mobile, and Garmin hand-held GPS units. I believe a radio call to a flight service station can also get you the sunset time, but I haven't tried it. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org 
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#52
September 29th 06, 08:19 AM
posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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The SSA-OLC
At 14:42 28 September 2006, Andy wrote:
Doug Haluza wrote: Andy, the USNO is the definitive authority on sunset time--there is no arbitrary SSA definition of sunset. USNO makes online calculators available that compute sunrise and sunset for any place, for a single day, or a table for an entire year. So the data is easily accessible. Go here and make your own tables... http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear_draft.html
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#53
September 29th 06, 03:58 PM
posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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The SSA-OLC
Hi Yuliy,
Please see my notes below. Paul Remde "Yuliy Gerchikov" and_.hope.it.travel wrote in message ... Paul, I refuse to take offense at your post  .I am glad that you feel as strongly about the OLC as I do. I too am very sorry (or even "sick" as you've put it) to see fun being taken out of OLC. - I feel that we are probably very much alike. A wise person (Bob Wander) once told me that glider pilots are passionate about their sport. That is good! However, people who are passionate about something often have very strong opinions about all things relating to it. I have found that to be very true in many things related to soaring - especially soaring club policies, and now the OLC. So, you see, we are fundamentally in agreement: we both care about the OLC and miss the good old days when life was good for all. The only substantial difference of opinions between us is, of course, who's fault it is. For the sake of simplification (and at the risk of oversimplification), let's say that you are blaming me, and I am blaming you for taking fun out of OLC. So let us be logical for a minute at look at it calmly: 1. How could I alone (or "a tiny fraction of the pilots" as it's been put before) substantially affect the quality of the experience for the rest of the OLC citizens? In comparison, you as a member of the SSA-OLC controlling body, have much more influence than I do. - I must respectfully disagree with your logic. The OLC has long been setup so that pilots can submit any flight they want to, but they have always been encoraged to only submit flights that do not include violations of airspace or any other rules of the local flying environment. The premise has always been that any other pilot could make a report to the OLC if a flight was unfair or unsafe or illegal. This has not changed. As the OLC grew, they realized that they would benefit from having local experts help support it in each country - hence the creation of the SSA supported version of the OLC. There have been tremendouse benefits to doing this. Doug and others have worked hard to explain the OLC to US participants and support pilots when there are issues uploading flight logs. The benefit to US glider pilots has been immense. Then we (the SSA-OLC members) received a few reports of pilots that were flying outside what was considered good sportsmanship. I can't speak for the other SSA-OLC members, but I personally was concerned about this. If a group of pilots starts breaking rules to win, then many other pilots will feel that the competition is unfair and will stop competing. It is a priveledge to compete and there are rules (both OLC and FAA). If you break the rules we (the soaring community) don't want your flight listed with ours. You have then lost the priveledge to compete. You are not banned forever, but those flights that are in question are not welcome in our (the soaring community's) competition. I personally am extremely concerned that flights that break FARs make me personally look bad. Let me give an example. If a particular glider pilot here in MN was repeatedly flying into Class B airspace (this is completely hypothetical) and the FAA noticed it, they would think that glider pilots in general, at least those here in MN, don't seem to have any regard for the FAA or the FARs. The many glider pilots that do adhere to the FARs would be very frustrated. If we confronted the pilot about this and he/she would not change his ways we (MN soaring pilots, or soaring club members, or commercial operations) would stop offering him/her aerotows. Now let me extend that logic to the OLC. Not only are a few pilots making flights that could make us soaring pilots look bad, but they are posting evidence of this on a public forum (the OLC) so that the entire world can see it. I can sincerely say that makes me extremely angry. I think we are very lucky to have nearly free access to most of the airspace over the USA. I do NOT want to lose that priveledge. The OLC organizers in Germany probably don't know the details of US rules and regulations and probably have no interest in learning about them. They assume that any pilot that receives feedback about a questionable flight will remove their flight to avoid the embarassment of having it known that they flew outside the government established rules and regulations. The SSA-OLC was not formed to be a policing body. It was formed to be a helping and supportive body. But then we received word from other pilots of flights that were "questionable" in one way or another. To be honest, at that point I lost interest in the details. I just wanted the pilots to quietly remove the flights so we could move one. Unfortunately, that is not how it worked out. The glider pilots that reported the issues expected the SSA-OLC to do something about it. In my opinion, the US soaring community (at least those that fly in the OLC) expected the SSA-OLC to do something about it. I will not get into debate about how long past sunset or how far into restricted airspace a pilot went. I just want the flights removed from the fun and informal contest that (in my opinion) belongs to all glider pilots and represents all glider pilots. 2. My presence on the OLC-US before the SSA-OLC era somehow did not "take fun out of it". I used to enjoy OLC as much as you or the next guy did. It suddenly changed when the SSA came into the picture. - I disagree. See my note above. So with those two facts in mind ((1) you have much more influence than I do, and (2) it was still fun even with me on it before you came as part of SSA), please come again: why do you blame me for the recent changes? A little bit of shooting the messenger, perhaps? See my note above. There is, of course, the third possibility -- that it is neither my nor your fault, but instead just a problem of growth and popularity. As OLC gets exposed to more and more pilots (or is it the other way around?), there is a growing number of vigilant citizens there who, for competitive, personal, ideological or who-knows-what-other reasons, find it appropriate to scrutinize other peoples' traces and report them. - The contest of other pilot reporting questionable flights has been a part of the OLC from the start. Having said this, I am going to turn around and (in line with the more usual mode of interaction in these threads) throw all dogs back at you. It was your job that you willingly took upon yourself to handle all the growth and popularity problems of the OLC-US -- and so far it's been my opinion that you were mishandling them badly by encouraging the above mentioned behavior. - I can see that you are passionate about this and I must respectfully disagree. I am not trying to be condescending. I am being sincere. Please replace all occurrences of "you" with "SSA-OLC committee" in the above as my assurance that none of this is meant to be personal. - I understand that. Now, the fact that you recognize the meaning of the open forum -- and actually like it -- puts you way ahead of some of your colleagues from SSA-OLC committee. - You don't know them very well. Thank you. -- Yuliy "Paul Remde" wrote in message news:ZNPSg.75569$aJ.40945@attbi_s21... Hi Yuliy, Congratulations on taking the fun out of the OLC. Congratulations on making some very helpful volunteers very frustrated. Congratulations on discouraging cross country flight. I for one am a big fan of the OLC and I love to promote cross-country flight. I would not be in the least bit sorry if I never read any more postings from you, but it is an open forum and I like that about it. Paul Remde "Yuliy Gerchikov" wrote in message ... KM, Good points and observations, "KM" wrote in message ups.com... I am new to the R.A.S I too am new to the RAS (first post in 2001) and, according to some of the loudest proponents of SSA-OLC, should not be allowed to state my opinions here. But I'll venture some anyway ...before SSA takes over R.A.S and turns it into SSA-RAS with its own policies and politics. we have a active Yahoo group where pilots post flights during the season. Oh Horrors! You mean, you can post your flights, and no one will be scrutinizing them for FAR violations? No one will be "guarding" the community from the "bad apples"? No one will imply, without bothering themselves with facts, that some pilots "consistently fly outside the rules"? No one will tell you what you can or can't post there? No one will tell you which flights you can or can't look at and learn from? Wow... what a reckless concept. We haven't seen anything so disturbingly lax here on OLC since the sanitation of traces started under SSA rule. Certainly your Yahoo group is an unfortunate oversight on the SSA's part. Good thing you have mentioned it here, so it can be looked at and fixed soon. What is the URL? This is not a contest, just a way to report on the local happenings. Aha! That must be it. Obviously, the reason SSA-OLC has to be so different is the "C" in its name. judging by the gist of most of the comments on the "Sunset" thread the SSA OLC is not for educational purposes, but much more of a hard core contest. Here is the paradox. For educational purposes is, indeed, how most people use OLC -- but those who own it now in the US insist on running it as a hard core contest. How did the SSA get a monopoly on the OLC in the US, Beats me! and why did they change its intent? Oh, this one is simple. Because they care about us -- what we say, what we see, how we look to the feds. It's the Serve and Protect thing, you see. Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or enforce FARs" Interesting finding -- especially considering how easily some SSA officials pronounce certain pilots and flights to be "in violation of FARs". Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to HELPING the FAA come after me?Bizarre If you fly for a living, then you certainly, definitely, absolutely, positively NEVER EVER want to post any flights that have ANY chance or breaking ANY rules. Did you get it? Not even the slightest possibility of violation. The rest of the flights you can post -- just make absolutely sure that even with the ever-increasing level of scrutiny no one will ever find (or suggest) and "report" any violations in them. For example, you definitely don't want to post any ridge flights, because most of them *provably* violate FAR 91.119(c) -- even though this violation is not (yet?) in the SSA's "no-no list" and is inexplicably "OK" for SSA-OLC. You also don't want to post any flights that look like running the cloud streets (easily recognizable by high-speed flat "tops" and little or no thermalling for extended periods of time), because somebody may report you, alleging cloud clearance violations. For the same reason do not post any wave flights on days when medium to high RH was observed at your flight altitudes. This list, of course, can go on and on, depending on how picky, knowledgeable and motivated our volunteer "inspectors" are. Everything else you can post ...well, *somewhat* confidently. If you feel lucky. if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight, say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at? That's a new definition of "short" to me! In fact, posting "2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week" will put you high enough on the score sheet to attract a lot of attention -- and scrutiny -- to your flights. So keep in mind what you might not want to post. is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany? One would wish... Alas, there is no such way. The SSA, as you correctly pointed above, has a monopoly on OLC in this country. Every flight flown entirely within US borders must be submitted to SSA-OLC -- or not at all. K. Urban -- Yuliy
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#54
September 29th 06, 04:06 PM
posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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The SSA-OLC
Eric Greenwell wrote: You aren't getting that from Doug's posts: he has consistently said there isn't a hard number for various reason, as have other posters. The claim that the SSA is going to ask a pilot to remove a flight because it is a few seconds, or even minutes, over is wrong. Eric, and everyone else on this thread, let me apologize for the harsh tone of my last post.It has been cheerfully stricken from the record. The situation as I see it is this; Someone posted the minutes from a SSA board meeting elswhere on R.A.S. where they decided to remove any posts to OLC that could make the SSA look bad.Now, all Monica jokes aside, the SSA had to define "bad".Judging from some of the posts here, and the private emails I have recieved over this thread, the issue is one of interpritation and to a lesser degree, jurisdiction.I dont bring this up to argue FAR issues, I brought it up because I dont want my OLC postings to be scrutinized down to the Nth detail.IMHO this is what would take the fun out of it. I went on the OLC site for the first time a few days ago, and I was fasinated by it.I looked up flights out of some of the places I have flown at over the years and came across some old buddies flights and it was pretty cool.My point is that I never thought to question the legality of any of these flights.If I am at a full on contest, I would say bring on the scrutiny, I do my best to comply with the FARs and I have nothing to hide.But, if I am posting for a casual contest like the OLC, where it is just for fun and education, I would say who needs this level of scrutiny?Apparently someone does, because it keeps coming up.( Please dont anybody post an answer to this, it is strictly retorical.) You are making this far more difficult than it is. You really need to skip this thread, do some flying, post your flights on the OLC, and sit back and enjoy looking at the flights the other pilots are doing and are happily posing every day. You got that straight Eric! I am sorry I ever started this thread.I want to thank you Wayne, Tom and everyone else (Pro and con) for your insights. You've gotten plenty of insight from real world participants who have posted for years will no calls to remove their flights, but you appear to ignore it in favor of a few pilots unhappy with posting limitations on flights that show "substantial" variations from the FARS. Since you plan to fly well within the FARs, you should know by now that YOU will have no problems. So, why do you continue to worry about this? Her again Eric, thanks for your opinions.I didnt mean to keep this thread alive like this, it just sorta happened.I will probably try a post or two on the OLC next season. Paul never called your post "useless". At least, I couldn't find it, even with a Google Groups search, but if you'll point out the post, I'll be happy to read it. And, he did not suggest Yuily shouldn't post here, only that he didn't want to read his posts. What Paul did was call this thread useless.Since I started this thread, I figured he was refering to me.I dont know the guy personally and I didnt take issue with any of his ideas or opinoins, I took issue when he sugested what was "useful" to post. I hope he hasn't considered it when it comes to posting here, as I think we'd lose some very useful comments. I'm appalled that you consider Paul's stand one issue is a suitable reason to buy somewhere else, and attempt to silence him with an economic threat. Here again, Eric my comments were harsh, and made in a moment of haste and they have been withdrawn. If Paul's only interest in the sport was to suck as much money off the participants, he'd just be posting happy talk about all the great stuff he has to sell you. Paul is committed to this sport because he thinks it's a great one, and he works hard at making it better. He does this in a variety of ways, from very helpful comparison tables on his website, to running glider software classes at the conventions, and now the Contest Manager for the 2007 18M/Open Nationals. For the record, I also thinks Paul's website is a valuble asset.Although I am not a customer of his (yet), I have refered several people to his bisiness over the years. KM
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#55
September 29th 06, 05:13 PM
posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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The SSA-OLC
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#56
September 29th 06, 05:13 PM
posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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The SSA-OLC
Paul Remde wrote: Hi Yuliy, Please see my notes below. Paul Remde "Yuliy Gerchikov" and_.hope.it.travel wrote in message ... Paul, I refuse to take offense at your post .I am glad that you feel as strongly about the OLC as I do. I too am very sorry (or even "sick" as you've put it) to see fun being taken out of OLC. - I feel that we are probably very much alike. A wise person (Bob Wander) once told me that glider pilots are passionate about their sport. That is good! However, people who are passionate about something often have very strong opinions about all things relating to it. I have found that to be very true in many things related to soaring - especially soaring club policies, and now the OLC. So, you see, we are fundamentally in agreement: we both care about the OLC and miss the good old days when life was good for all. The only substantial difference of opinions between us is, of course, who's fault it is. For the sake of simplification (and at the risk of oversimplification), let's say that you are blaming me, and I am blaming you for taking fun out of OLC. So let us be logical for a minute at look at it calmly: 1. How could I alone (or "a tiny fraction of the pilots" as it's been put before) substantially affect the quality of the experience for the rest of the OLC citizens? In comparison, you as a member of the SSA-OLC controlling body, have much more influence than I do. - I must respectfully disagree with your logic. The OLC has long been setup so that pilots can submit any flight they want to, but they have always been encoraged to only submit flights that do not include violations of airspace or any other rules of the local flying environment. The premise has always been that any other pilot could make a report to the OLC if a flight was unfair or unsafe or illegal. This has not changed. As the OLC grew, they realized that they would benefit from having local experts help support it in each country - hence the creation of the SSA supported version of the OLC. There have been tremendouse benefits to doing this. Doug and others have worked hard to explain the OLC to US participants and support pilots when there are issues uploading flight logs. The benefit to US glider pilots has been immense. Then we (the SSA-OLC members) received a few reports of pilots that were flying outside what was considered good sportsmanship. I can't speak for the other SSA-OLC members, but I personally was concerned about this. If a group of pilots starts breaking rules to win, then many other pilots will feel that the competition is unfair and will stop competing. It is a priveledge to compete and there are rules (both OLC and FAA). If you break the rules we (the soaring community) don't want your flight listed with ours. You have then lost the priveledge to compete. You are not banned forever, but those flights that are in question are not welcome in our (the soaring community's) competition. I personally am extremely concerned that flights that break FARs make me personally look bad. Let me give an example. If a particular glider pilot here in MN was repeatedly flying into Class B airspace (this is completely hypothetical) and the FAA noticed it, they would think that glider pilots in general, at least those here in MN, don't seem to have any regard for the FAA or the FARs. The many glider pilots that do adhere to the FARs would be very frustrated. If we confronted the pilot about this and he/she would not change his ways we (MN soaring pilots, or soaring club members, or commercial operations) would stop offering him/her aerotows. Now let me extend that logic to the OLC. Not only are a few pilots making flights that could make us soaring pilots look bad, but they are posting evidence of this on a public forum (the OLC) so that the entire world can see it. I can sincerely say that makes me extremely angry. I think we are very lucky to have nearly free access to most of the airspace over the USA. I do NOT want to lose that priveledge. The OLC organizers in Germany probably don't know the details of US rules and regulations and probably have no interest in learning about them. They assume that any pilot that receives feedback about a questionable flight will remove their flight to avoid the embarassment of having it known that they flew outside the government established rules and regulations. The SSA-OLC was not formed to be a policing body. It was formed to be a helping and supportive body. But then we received word from other pilots of flights that were "questionable" in one way or another. To be honest, at that point I lost interest in the details. I just wanted the pilots to quietly remove the flights so we could move one. Unfortunately, that is not how it worked out. The glider pilots that reported the issues expected the SSA-OLC to do something about it. In my opinion, the US soaring community (at least those that fly in the OLC) expected the SSA-OLC to do something about it. I will not get into debate about how long past sunset or how far into restricted airspace a pilot went. I just want the flights removed from the fun and informal contest that (in my opinion) belongs to all glider pilots and represents all glider pilots. 2. My presence on the OLC-US before the SSA-OLC era somehow did not "take fun out of it". I used to enjoy OLC as much as you or the next guy did. It suddenly changed when the SSA came into the picture. - I disagree. See my note above. So with those two facts in mind ((1) you have much more influence than I do, and (2) it was still fun even with me on it before you came as part of SSA), please come again: why do you blame me for the recent changes? A little bit of shooting the messenger, perhaps? See my note above. There is, of course, the third possibility -- that it is neither my nor your fault, but instead just a problem of growth and popularity. As OLC gets exposed to more and more pilots (or is it the other way around?), there is a growing number of vigilant citizens there who, for competitive, personal, ideological or who-knows-what-other reasons, find it appropriate to scrutinize other peoples' traces and report them. - The contest of other pilot reporting questionable flights has been a part of the OLC from the start. Having said this, I am going to turn around and (in line with the more usual mode of interaction in these threads) throw all dogs back at you. It was your job that you willingly took upon yourself to handle all the growth and popularity problems of the OLC-US -- and so far it's been my opinion that you were mishandling them badly by encouraging the above mentioned behavior. - I can see that you are passionate about this and I must respectfully disagree. I am not trying to be condescending. I am being sincere. Please replace all occurrences of "you" with "SSA-OLC committee" in the above as my assurance that none of this is meant to be personal. - I understand that. Now, the fact that you recognize the meaning of the open forum -- and actually like it -- puts you way ahead of some of your colleagues from SSA-OLC committee. - You don't know them very well. Thank you. -- Yuliy "Paul Remde" wrote in message news:ZNPSg.75569$aJ.40945@attbi_s21... Hi Yuliy, Congratulations on taking the fun out of the OLC. Congratulations on making some very helpful volunteers very frustrated. Congratulations on discouraging cross country flight. I for one am a big fan of the OLC and I love to promote cross-country flight. I would not be in the least bit sorry if I never read any more postings from you, but it is an open forum and I like that about it. Paul Remde "Yuliy Gerchikov" wrote in message ... KM, Good points and observations, "KM" wrote in message ups.com... I am new to the R.A.S I too am new to the RAS (first post in 2001) and, according to some of the loudest proponents of SSA-OLC, should not be allowed to state my opinions here. But I'll venture some anyway ...before SSA takes over R.A.S and turns it into SSA-RAS with its own policies and politics. we have a active Yahoo group where pilots post flights during the season. Oh Horrors! You mean, you can post your flights, and no one will be scrutinizing them for FAR violations? No one will be "guarding" the community from the "bad apples"? No one will imply, without bothering themselves with facts, that some pilots "consistently fly outside the rules"? No one will tell you what you can or can't post there? No one will tell you which flights you can or can't look at and learn from? Wow... what a reckless concept. We haven't seen anything so disturbingly lax here on OLC since the sanitation of traces started under SSA rule. Certainly your Yahoo group is an unfortunate oversight on the SSA's part. Good thing you have mentioned it here, so it can be looked at and fixed soon. What is the URL? This is not a contest, just a way to report on the local happenings. Aha! That must be it. Obviously, the reason SSA-OLC has to be so different is the "C" in its name. judging by the gist of most of the comments on the "Sunset" thread the SSA OLC is not for educational purposes, but much more of a hard core contest. Here is the paradox. For educational purposes is, indeed, how most people use OLC -- but those who own it now in the US insist on running it as a hard core contest. How did the SSA get a monopoly on the OLC in the US, Beats me! and why did they change its intent? Oh, this one is simple. Because they care about us -- what we say, what we see, how we look to the feds. It's the Serve and Protect thing, you see. Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or enforce FARs" Interesting finding -- especially considering how easily some SSA officials pronounce certain pilots and flights to be "in violation of FARs". Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to HELPING the FAA come after me?Bizarre If you fly for a living, then you certainly, definitely, absolutely, positively NEVER EVER want to post any flights that have ANY chance or breaking ANY rules. Did you get it? Not even the slightest possibility of violation. The rest of the flights you can post -- just make absolutely sure that even with the ever-increasing level of scrutiny no one will ever find (or suggest) and "report" any violations in them. For example, you definitely don't want to post any ridge flights, because most of them *provably* violate FAR 91.119(c) -- even though this violation is not (yet?) in the SSA's "no-no list" and is inexplicably "OK" for SSA-OLC. You also don't want to post any flights that look like running the cloud streets (easily recognizable by high-speed flat "tops" and little or no thermalling for extended periods of time), because somebody may report you, alleging cloud clearance violations. For the same reason do not post any wave flights on days when medium to high RH was observed at your flight altitudes. This list, of course, can go on and on, depending on how picky, knowledgeable and motivated our volunteer "inspectors" are. Everything else you can post ...well, *somewhat* confidently. If you feel lucky. if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight, say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at? That's a new definition of "short" to me! In fact, posting "2 to 3hundred miles about once a week" will put you high enough on the score sheet to attract a lot of attention -- and scrutiny -- to your flights. So keep in mind what you might not want to post. is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany? One would wish... Alas, there is no such way. The SSA, as you correctly pointed above, has a monopoly on OLC in this country. Every flight flown entirely within US borders must be submitted to SSA-OLC -- or not at all. K. Urban -- Yuliy
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#57
September 29th 06, 05:15 PM
posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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The SSA-OLC
Paul Remde wrote: Hi Yuliy, Please see my notes below. Paul Remde "Yuliy Gerchikov" and_.hope.it.travel wrote in message ... Paul, I refuse to take offense at your post .I am glad that you feel as strongly about the OLC as I do. I too am very sorry (or even "sick" as you've put it) to see fun being taken out of OLC. - I feel that we are probably very much alike. A wise person (Bob Wander) once told me that glider pilots are passionate about their sport. That is good! However, people who are passionate about something often have very strong opinions about all things relating to it. I have found that to be very true in many things related to soaring - especially soaring club policies, and now the OLC. So, you see, we are fundamentally in agreement: we both care about the OLC and miss the good old days when life was good for all. The only substantial difference of opinions between us is, of course, who's fault it is. For the sake of simplification (and at the risk of oversimplification), let's say that you are blaming me, and I am blaming you for taking fun out of OLC. So let us be logical for a minute at look at it calmly: 1. How could I alone (or "a tiny fraction of the pilots" as it's been put before) substantially affect the quality of the experience for the rest of the OLC citizens? In comparison, you as a member of the SSA-OLC controlling body, have much more influence than I do. - I must respectfully disagree with your logic. The OLC has long been setup so that pilots can submit any flight they want to, but they have always been encoraged to only submit flights that do not include violations of airspace or any other rules of the local flying environment. The premise has always been that any other pilot could make a report to the OLC if a flight was unfair or unsafe or illegal. This has not changed. As the OLC grew, they realized that they would benefit from having local experts help support it in each country - hence the creation of the SSA supported version of the OLC. There have been tremendouse benefits to doing this. Doug and others have worked hard to explain the OLC to US participants and support pilots when there are issues uploading flight logs. The benefit to US glider pilots has been immense. Then we (the SSA-OLC members) received a few reports of pilots that were flying outside what was considered good sportsmanship. I can't speak for the other SSA-OLC members, but I personally was concerned about this. If a group of pilots starts breaking rules to win, then many other pilots will feel that the competition is unfair and will stop competing. It is a priveledge to compete and there are rules (both OLC and FAA). If you break the rules we (the soaring community) don't want your flight listed with ours. You have then lost the priveledge to compete. You are not banned forever, but those flights that are in question are not welcome in our (the soaring community's) competition. I personally am extremely concerned that flights that break FARs make me personally look bad. Let me give an example. If a particular glider pilot here in MN was repeatedly flying into Class B airspace (this is completely hypothetical) and the FAA noticed it, they would think that glider pilots in general, at least those here in MN, don't seem to have any regard for the FAA or the FARs. The many glider pilots that do adhere to the FARs would be very frustrated. If we confronted the pilot about this and he/she would not change his ways we (MN soaring pilots, or soaring club members, or commercial operations) would stop offering him/her aerotows. Now let me extend that logic to the OLC. Not only are a few pilots making flights that could make us soaring pilots look bad, but they are posting evidence of this on a public forum (the OLC) so that the entire world can see it. I can sincerely say that makes me extremely angry. I think we are very lucky to have nearly free access to most of the airspace over the USA. I do NOT want to lose that priveledge. The OLC organizers in Germany probably don't know the details of US rules and regulations and probably have no interest in learning about them. They assume that any pilot that receives feedback about a questionable flight will remove their flight to avoid the embarassment of having it known that they flew outside the government established rules and regulations. The SSA-OLC was not formed to be a policing body. It was formed to be a helping and supportive body. But then we received word from other pilots of flights that were "questionable" in one way or another. To be honest, at that point I lost interest in the details. I just wanted the pilots to quietly remove the flights so we could move one. Unfortunately, that is not how it worked out. The glider pilots that reported the issues expected the SSA-OLC to do something about it. In my opinion, the US soaring community (at least those that fly in the OLC) expected the SSA-OLC to do something about it. I will not get into debate about how long past sunset or how far into restricted airspace a pilot went. I just want the flights removed from the fun and informal contest that (in my opinion) belongs to all glider pilots and represents all glider pilots. 2. My presence on the OLC-US before the SSA-OLC era somehow did not "take fun out of it". I used to enjoy OLC as much as you or the next guy did. It suddenly changed when the SSA came into the picture. - I disagree. See my note above. So with those two facts in mind ((1) you have much more influence than I do, and (2) it was still fun even with me on it before you came as part of SSA), please come again: why do you blame me for the recent changes? A little bit of shooting the messenger, perhaps? See my note above. There is, of course, the third possibility -- that it is neither my nor your fault, but instead just a problem of growth and popularity. As OLC gets exposed to more and more pilots (or is it the other way around?), there is a growing number of vigilant citizens there who, for competitive, personal, ideological or who-knows-what-other reasons, find it appropriate to scrutinize other peoples' traces and report them. - The contest of other pilot reporting questionable flights has been a part of the OLC from the start. Having said this, I am going to turn around and (in line with the more usual mode of interaction in these threads) throw all dogs back at you. It was your job that you willingly took upon yourself to handle all the growth and popularity problems of the OLC-US -- and so far it's been my opinion that you were mishandling them badly by encouraging the above mentioned behavior. - I can see that you are passionate about this and I must respectfully disagree. I am not trying to be condescending. I am being sincere. Please replace all occurrences of "you" with "SSA-OLC committee" in the above as my assurance that none of this is meant to be personal. - I understand that. Now, the fact that you recognize the meaning of the open forum -- and actually like it -- puts you way ahead of some of your colleagues from SSA-OLC committee. - You don't know them very well. Thank you. -- Yuliy "Paul Remde" wrote in message news:ZNPSg.75569$aJ.40945@attbi_s21... Hi Yuliy, Congratulations on taking the fun out of the OLC. Congratulations on making some very helpful volunteers very frustrated. Congratulations on discouraging cross country flight. I for one am a big fan of the OLC and I love to promote cross-country flight. I would not be in the least bit sorry if I never read any more postings from you, but it is an open forum and I like that about it. Paul Remde "Yuliy Gerchikov" wrote in message ... KM, Good points and observations, "KM" wrote in message ups.com... I am new to the R.A.S I too am new to the RAS (first post in 2001) and, according to some of the loudest proponents of SSA-OLC, should not be allowed to state my opinions here. But I'll venture some anyway ...before SSA takes over R.A.S and turns it into SSA-RAS with its own policies and politics. we have a active Yahoo group where pilots post flights during the season. Oh Horrors! You mean, you can post your flights, and no one will be scrutinizing them for FAR violations? No one will be "guarding" the community from the "bad apples"? No one will imply, without bothering themselves with facts, that some pilots "consistently fly outside the rules"? No one will tell you what you can or can't post there? No one will tell you which flights you can or can't look at and learn from? Wow... what a reckless concept. We haven't seen anything so disturbingly lax here on OLC since the sanitation of traces started under SSA rule. Certainly your Yahoo group is an unfortunate oversight on the SSA's part. Good thing you have mentioned it here, so it can be looked at and fixed soon. What is the URL? This is not a contest, just a way to report on the local happenings. Aha! That must be it. Obviously, the reason SSA-OLC has to be so different is the "C" in its name. judging by the gist of most of the comments on the "Sunset" thread the SSA OLC is not for educational purposes, but much more of a hard core contest. Here is the paradox. For educational purposes is, indeed, how most people use OLC -- but those who own it now in the US insist on running it as a hard core contest. How did the SSA get a monopoly on the OLC in the US, Beats me! and why did they change its intent? Oh, this one is simple. Because they care about us -- what we say, what we see, how we look to the feds. It's the Serve and Protect thing, you see. Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or enforce FARs" Interesting finding -- especially considering how easily some SSA officials pronounce certain pilots and flights to be "in violation of FARs". Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to HELPING the FAA come after me?Bizarre If you fly for a living, then you certainly, definitely, absolutely, positively NEVER EVER want to post any flights that have ANY chance or breaking ANY rules. Did you get it? Not even the slightest possibility of violation. The rest of the flights you can post -- just make absolutely sure that even with the ever-increasing level of scrutiny no one will ever find (or suggest) and "report" any violations in them. For example, you definitely don't want to post any ridge flights, because most of them *provably* violate FAR 91.119(c) -- even though this violation is not (yet?) in the SSA's "no-no list" and is inexplicably "OK" for SSA-OLC. You also don't want to post any flights that look like running the cloud streets (easily recognizable by high-speed flat "tops" and little or no thermalling for extended periods of time), because somebody may report you, alleging cloud clearance violations. For the same reason do not post any wave flights on days when medium to high RH was observed at your flight altitudes. This list, of course, can go on and on, depending on how picky, knowledgeable and motivated our volunteer "inspectors" are. Everything else you can post ...well, *somewhat* confidently. If you feel lucky. if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight, say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at? That's a new definition of "short" to me! In fact, posting "2 to 3hundred miles about once a week" will put you high enough on the score sheet to attract a lot of attention -- and scrutiny -- to your flights. So keep in mind what you might not want to post. is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany? One would wish... Alas, there is no such way. The SSA, as you correctly pointed above, has a monopoly on OLC in this country. Every flight flown entirely within US borders must be submitted to SSA-OLC -- or not at all. K. Urban -- Yuliy
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#58
September 29th 06, 05:24 PM
posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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The SSA-OLC
Paul, I think your reply to Yuliy (generalized) would make a very good
article for Soaring. There are likely many other pilots who could use this guidance. - Béla ------Original Message----- -From: Glider Pilot Network ] -Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 8:06 AM -To: Bela Szalai -Subject: [r.a.s] The SSA-OLC - ------------------------------------------------------------- -Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring -Subject: The SSA-OLC -Author: Paul Remde -Date/Time: 15:00 29 September 2006 ------------------------------------------------------------- -Hi Yuliy, - -Please see my notes below. - -Paul Remde - -"Yuliy Gerchikov" - wrote -in message ... - Paul, - - I refuse to take offense at your post .- - I am glad that you feel as strongly about the OLC as I do. I too am - very - - sorry (or even "sick" as you've put it) to see fun being taken out of -OLC. - - - I feel that we are probably very much alike. A wise person -(Bob Wander) - -once told me that glider pilots are passionate about their -sport. That is good! However, people who are passionate -about something often have very - -strong opinions about all things relating to it. I have found -that to be very true in many things related to soaring - -especially soaring club policies, and now the OLC. - - So, you see, we are fundamentally in agreement: we both care -about the -OLC - and miss the good old days when life was good for all. - - The only substantial difference of opinions between us is, of course, - - who's fault it is. For the sake of simplification (and at the risk of - - oversimplification), let's say that you are blaming me, and I am - blaming - - you for taking fun out of OLC. So let us be logical for a minute at - look - - at it calmly: - - 1. How could I alone (or "a tiny fraction of the pilots" as it's been -put - before) substantially affect the quality of the experience for the - rest -of - the OLC citizens? In comparison, you as a member of the SSA-OLC - controlling body, have much more influence than I do. - - - I must respectfully disagree with your logic. The OLC has long been - -setup so that pilots can submit any flight they want to, but they have - -always been encoraged to only submit flights that do not -include violations - -of airspace or any other rules of the local flying -environment. The premise - -has always been that any other pilot could make a report to -the OLC if a flight was unfair or unsafe or illegal. This has -not changed. As the OLC grew, they realized that they would -benefit from having local experts help - -support it in each country - hence the creation of the SSA -supported version - -of the OLC. There have been tremendouse benefits to doing -this. Doug and others have worked hard to explain the OLC to -US participants and support - -pilots when there are issues uploading flight logs. The benefit to US - -glider pilots has been immense. - -Then we (the SSA-OLC members) received a few reports of pilots -that were - -flying outside what was considered good sportsmanship. I -can't speak for - -the other SSA-OLC members, but I personally was concerned about this. -If a -group of pilots starts breaking rules to win, then many other -pilots will - -feel that the competition is unfair and will stop competing. -It is a priveledge to compete and there are rules (both OLC -and FAA). If you break - -the rules we (the soaring community) don't want your flight listed with - -ours. You have then lost the priveledge to compete. You are -not banned - -forever, but those flights that are in question are not -welcome in our (the soaring community's) competition. - -I personally am extremely concerned that flights that break -FARs make me - -personally look bad. Let me give an example. If a particular glider - -pilot here in MN was repeatedly flying into Class B airspace -(this is completely hypothetical) and the FAA noticed it, they -would think that - -glider pilots in general, at least those here in MN, don't -seem to have any regard for the FAA or the FARs. The many -glider pilots that do adhere to the FARs would be very -frustrated. If we confronted the pilot about this - -and he/she would not change his ways we (MN soaring pilots, or -soaring club members, or commercial operations) would stop -offering him/her aerotows. - -Now let me extend that logic to the OLC. Not only are a few -pilots making - -flights that could make us soaring pilots look bad, but they -are posting - -evidence of this on a public forum (the OLC) so that the -entire world can - -see it. I can sincerely say that makes me extremely angry. I -think we are very lucky to have nearly free access to most of -the airspace over the USA. -I do NOT want to lose that priveledge. - -The OLC organizers in Germany probably don't know the details -of US rules - -and regulations and probably have no interest in learning about them. -They -assume that any pilot that receives feedback about a -questionable flight - -will remove their flight to avoid the embarassment of having -it known that - -they flew outside the government established rules and -regulations. The - -SSA-OLC was not formed to be a policing body. It was formed to -be a helping - -and supportive body. But then we received word from other -pilots of flights - -that were "questionable" in one way or another. To be honest, -at that point I lost interest in the details. I just wanted -the pilots to quietly remove - -the flights so we could move one. Unfortunately, that is not -how it worked - -out. The glider pilots that reported the issues expected the -SSA-OLC to do something about it. In my opinion, the US -soaring community (at least those that fly in the OLC) -expected the SSA-OLC to do something about it. I will not get -into debate about how long past sunset or how far into restricted - -airspace a pilot went. I just want the flights removed from -the fun and - -informal contest that (in my opinion) belongs to all glider pilots and - -represents all glider pilots. - - - 2. My presence on the OLC-US before the SSA-OLC era somehow did not - "take - - fun out of it". I used to enjoy OLC as much as you or the -next guy did. -It - suddenly changed when the SSA came into the picture. - - - I disagree. See my note above. - - - So with those two facts in mind ((1) you have much more -influence than -I - do, and (2) it was still fun even with me on it before you came as - part -of - SSA), please come again: why do you blame me for the recent changes? -A - little bit of shooting the messenger, perhaps? - -See my note above. - - - There is, of course, the third possibility -- that it is neither my - nor - - your fault, but instead just a problem of growth and popularity. As - OLC - - gets exposed to more and more pilots (or is it the other way -around?), - - there is a growing number of vigilant citizens there who, for - competitive, - - personal, ideological or who-knows-what-other reasons, find it - appropriate - - to scrutinize other peoples' traces and report them. - - - The contest of other pilot reporting questionable flights -has been a part of the OLC from the start. - - - Having said this, I am going to turn around and (in line -with the more - - usual mode of interaction in these threads) throw all dogs -back at you. -It - was your job that you willingly took upon yourself to handle all the - - growth and popularity problems of the OLC-US -- and so far it's been -my - opinion that you were mishandling them badly by encouraging the above - - mentioned behavior. - - - I can see that you are passionate about this and I must respectfully - -disagree. I am not trying to be condescending. I am being sincere. - - - Please replace all occurrences of "you" with "SSA-OLC committee" in - the - - above as my assurance that none of this is meant to be personal. - - - I understand that. - - - Now, the fact that you recognize the meaning of the open forum -- and - - actually like it -- puts you way ahead of some of your -colleagues from - - SSA-OLC committee. - - - You don't know them very well. - - - Thank you. - -- - Yuliy - - - "Paul Remde" wrote in message - news:ZNPSg.75569$aJ.40945@attbi_s21... - Hi Yuliy, - - Congratulations on taking the fun out of the OLC. -Congratulations on - - making some very helpful volunteers very frustrated. -Congratulations -on - discouraging cross country flight. - - I for one am a big fan of the OLC and I love to promote -cross-country - - flight. - - I would not be in the least bit sorry if I never read any more - postings - - from you, but it is an open forum and I like that about it. - - Paul Remde - - "Yuliy Gerchikov" wrote - in message ... - KM, - - Good points and observations, - - "KM" wrote in message - ups.com... - -I am new to the R.A.S - - I too am new to the RAS (first post in 2001) and, according to some -of - the loudest proponents of SSA-OLC, should not be allowed -to state my - - opinions here. But I'll venture some anyway ...before SSA -takes over - - R.A.S and turns it into SSA-RAS with its own policies and politics. - - we have a active Yahoo group - where pilots post flights during the season. - - Oh Horrors! You mean, you can post your flights, and no one will be - - scrutinizing them for FAR violations? No one will be "guarding" the - - community from the "bad apples"? No one will imply, without - bothering - - themselves with facts, that some pilots "consistently fly outside - the - - rules"? No one will tell you what you can or can't post there? No - one - - will tell you which flights you can or can't look at and -learn from? - - Wow... what a reckless concept. We haven't seen anything so - disturbingly - - lax here on OLC since the sanitation of traces started -under SSA rule. - - Certainly your Yahoo group is an unfortunate oversight on the SSA's - - part. Good thing you have mentioned it here, so it can be looked at -and - fixed soon. What is the URL? - - This is not a contest, just - a way to report on the local happenings. - - Aha! That must be it. Obviously, the reason SSA-OLC has to be so - different is the "C" in its name. - - judging by the gist of - most of the comments on the "Sunset" thread the SSA OLC -is not for - educational purposes, but much more of a hard core contest. - - Here is the paradox. For educational purposes is, indeed, how most - - people use OLC -- but those who own it now in the US insist on - running - - it as a hard core contest. - - How did the SSA get a - monopoly on the OLC in the US, - - Beats me! - - and why did they change its intent? - - Oh, this one is simple. Because they care about us -- what we say, -what - we see, how we look to the feds. It's the Serve and Protect thing, -you - see. - - Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a -memo - regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to -interpret -or - enforce FARs" - - Interesting finding -- especially considering how easily some SSA - officials pronounce certain pilots and flights to be "in violation -of - FARs". - - Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I have every - motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety -standpoint - to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does -something - stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to HELPING - the FAA come after me?Bizarre - - If you fly for a living, then you certainly, definitely, -absolutely, - - positively NEVER EVER want to post any flights that have ANY chance -or - breaking ANY rules. Did you get it? Not even the slightest - possibility - - of violation. The rest of the flights you can post -- just make - absolutely sure that even with the ever-increasing level -of scrutiny -no - one will ever find (or suggest) and "report" any -violations in them. - - For example, you definitely don't want to post any ridge flights, - because most of them *provably* violate FAR 91.119(c) -- -even though - - this violation is not (yet?) in the SSA's "no-no list" and is - inexplicably "OK" for SSA-OLC. You also don't want to post any - flights - - that look like running the cloud streets (easily recognizable by - high-speed flat "tops" and little or no thermalling for extended - periods - - of time), because somebody may report you, alleging cloud clearance - - violations. For the same reason do not post any wave -flights on days - - when medium to high RH was observed at your flight altitudes. - - This list, of course, can go on and on, depending on how picky, - knowledgeable and motivated our volunteer "inspectors" are. - Everything - - else you can post ...well, *somewhat* confidently. If you -feel lucky. - - if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight, say 2 to 3 - hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed -at? - - That's a new definition of "short" to me! In fact, posting "2 to-3 - hundred miles about once a week" will put you high enough on the - score - - sheet to attract a lot of attention -- and scrutiny -- to -your flights. - - So keep in mind what you might not want to post. - - is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the politics - and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany? - - One would wish... Alas, there is no such way. The SSA, as you - correctly - - pointed above, has a monopoly on OLC in this country. Every flight -flown - entirely within US borders must be submitted to SSA-OLC -- -or not at - - all. - - K. Urban - -- - Yuliy - - - - - ------------------------------------------------------------- -
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#59
September 29th 06, 06:24 PM
posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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The SSA-OLC
Paul Remde wrote:
I'm just very frustrated with this entire series of threads. Can't I state my opinions without it being taken personally? But of course you can.I may have interpeted your comments as condisending and if they werent, my apologies.I also didnt understand your answer to Graeme C.I think most of us, whether or not anyone agrees, understood what he was trying to say. Now at the risk of belligering the issue of the SSA-OLC, I think it is unfortunate that the SSA has to address the FAR issues on the OLC.Its a dirty job but someones got to do it, and I guess you and Doug and whoever else is on the OLC board are catching all the static on this and it has got to be a bit discouraging at times.The SSA-OLC could probably help you a bit by updating their policy on this. Should I not make a comment about a sensitive topic because some people will disagree with me and not buy from me? I hope not. Go ahead and provide all the commentary you want to.I may have taken some of your comments as passing judgment and this is what led to my comments.I may have jumped to conclusions.My apologies.I would like to ad that I find your website (and Tim Mara's) a valuble asset to the soaring community. KM Paul Remde
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