soaring into the future

It's nice to hear that winch launching is possible
at an existing US airport/gliderport. Over here in
Europe the vast majority of training flights at many
clubs are by winch. Learning to fly gliders up to solo
standard is probably the most expensive part of gliding,
so for the circuit bashing stuff winch launches are
ideal. Generally we also mix in some aerotowing for
the exercises that need a bit of altitude, and so that
students learn how to aerotow, which is a considerable
skill in itself.

There also seems to be a view in the States that soaring
away from a winch launch is only possible if you have
a site right next to, or on top of, a ridge, or if
you can get 2500ft+ launches. In fact many winch launching
sites in Europe are in flat areas. You just have to
learn to soar away in thermals from fairly low altitudes.
I fly from a flatland club in the south of England.
Our winch runs vary from 3500 to 4500 feet, depending
on the wind strength and direction, and we normally
get launches in the range 1400 to 2000ft. On days when
there are thermals, our better soaring pilots will
probably get away 8 times out of 10. Even if they fall
down, another winch launch is not going to break the
bank.

Airfields are usually placed on high, well drained
land, so are often good thermal sources in themselves,
especially if there are hard runways. The trick is
to fly just downwind of the airfield looking for thermal
markers, such as other gliders circling higher up,
birds taking off and, in hotter climates, dust devils.
In the absence of any of these markers just try to
cover as much ground as you can before getting down
to circuit height. Even in the circuit you still may
still encounter lift, but only use it if it doesn't
compromise the safety of the flight.

Del Copeland

At 19:42 28 December 2007, Sam Discusflyer wrote:
Our club operates a winch from a public airport. The
FOB manager is very supportive. It takes some planning.
It requires you to discuss with your club and discuss
directly with the FOB manager. Prepare a presentation
(BTW nothing fancy), prepare a written agreement, discuss
safety, operations, and the airports revenue sharing
amount. This is a critical step as most FOB managers
must report the activity to the city/county airport
board. The BGA has emmense experience and offer a lot
of documentation to assist you. USE IT. Back up what
you tell the FOB. Bring in some experienced winch operators
for your first weekend. It works.

I was thinking about the bait switch today and how
that works. I laughed when I thought about a reverse
way to use it. One of our students had been training
on aero tow. Paying about $30/tow. He was only doing
2-3 tows every couple of weeks. You could see he was
on the edge of losing interest. Our winch operations
came along at just the right time. We only charge $10/waunch.
This student took 3 waunches the first day and 9 waunches
the next. He was so hooked he then ran for a club officer
position. He exclaimed '9 flights for the price of
3'. WOW.
So have a new student pay for 3 aero tows for $90,
then introduce them to 9 waunches for the same price.
And guess what, they also get 3 times the practice.

If you want a copy of our presentation and other materials,
drop me a line.


SAM


At 16:42 28 December 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:

'toad' wrote in message
.

com...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think
the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt
that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would
allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with
aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the
US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated
an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the
northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that
has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several
million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive
compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch
and the response was
'bring it on'. It seems almost universal that glider
pilots assume winch
operations would be turned down so they don't actually
ask. Ask in a
reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally
served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations
at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared.
(Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.)
That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which,
to a degree, depends on
public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring
100's of operations per
day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good,
particularly if those
operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots
of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't
hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.

Why not? Many European clubs offer both winch and aerotow
launches, including my own. Some members only ever
aerotow and some (usually the less well off) only winch
launch. Most members do both, depending on the conditions,
what they can afford, and what they want to do. A winch
launch costs less than a third of the cost of an aerotow,
so it is a cheap way of staying current during the
winter when it is rarely thermic in the UK. About
two-thirds of our launches are on the winch, so we
can make do with fewer tug aircraft than would be the
case if we were an all aerotow operation.

The only safety issue is to make sure that aerotows
and winch launches don't happen at the same time, to
eliminate the risk of the tug flying into the winch
cable. We have a 'launch point controller' to make
sure that this is the case.

Del Copeland

At 03:42 29 December 2007, Mike Schumann wrote:

snip
In order to be a safe and successful with winch launching,
you need to make
a 100% commitment. You can't run winches and tows
in parallel, if people
are going to get and stay proficient in winch launching.
In addition, the
only way winches are economically justifiable is if
you totally eliminate
the overhead, operating, and maintenance costs associated
with a tow plane.

Winch launching can be much more dangerous than aerotow if you don't have
the proper training and stay current. If you have a club with both winch
launching and aerotow, and members focus on one or the other, you're fine.
The problem is with a typical pilot who only flies one or two times a week
and occasionally plays around with winches.

Many US clubs are relatively small compared to some European operations. On
a busy day, we have maybe 20 people show up. On a typical day, we don't
even have enough interest to get all 5 of our club gliders onto the flight
line. There's no way, in that environment that you are going to have enough
manpower and interest to haul out the winch and the tow plane. The
inevitable result is that the winch will only come out for special
occasions, and someone is going to get hurt.

And that doesn't even go into the economic issues, where the big
attractiveness of the winch is to completely eliminate the costs associated
with owning and operating a tow plane.

Mike Schumann

"Del C" wrote in message
...
Why not? Many European clubs offer both winch and aerotow
launches, including my own. Some members only ever
aerotow and some (usually the less well off) only winch
launch. Most members do both, depending on the conditions,
what they can afford, and what they want to do. A winch
launch costs less than a third of the cost of an aerotow,
so it is a cheap way of staying current during the
winter when it is rarely thermic in the UK. About
two-thirds of our launches are on the winch, so we
can make do with fewer tug aircraft than would be the
case if we were an all aerotow operation.

The only safety issue is to make sure that aerotows
and winch launches don't happen at the same time, to
eliminate the risk of the tug flying into the winch
cable. We have a 'launch point controller' to make
sure that this is the case.

Del Copeland

At 03:42 29 December 2007, Mike Schumann wrote:

snip
In order to be a safe and successful with winch launching,
you need to make
a 100% commitment. You can't run winches and tows
in parallel, if people
are going to get and stay proficient in winch launching.
In addition, the
only way winches are economically justifiable is if
you totally eliminate
the overhead, operating, and maintenance costs associated
with a tow plane.








--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

I agree that you need a certain critical membership
mass to support both launching methods. However if
you can make gliding cheaper by the use of a winch
AND advertise the fact, especially on university and
college campuses, then maybe the clubs in the US will
get bigger. Many of our top UK competition glider pilots
started as members of university gliding clubs. They
are the ones who are more likely to have the disposable
income later on in life to be able to afford gliding,
if they are not priced out of it in the first place!


The other big source of new members in the UK are successful
middle aged empty nesters who are looking for something
to keep them occupied. From a club point of view they
are even better as, being older, they generally need
more flights to get up to solo standard, and often
go on to become committee members, bringing in valuable
business experience from the outside World.

Both groups have the time to help at the launch point.

I also agree that pilots need to be properly trained
in winch launching techiques, but you are making it
sound something akin to playing Russian Roulette! As
long as you approach winch launching with proper respect,
your brain in gear, and remember to do the 'eventualities'
check (what will I do if the wing drops, the cable
or weak link breaks, or the winch engine fails) there
is absolutely no reason to consider it dangerous. BTW
some poor fellow recently managed to cartwheel a glider
during an aerotow launch! So even they are not without
some risks.

We are lucky to see many of our members twice a month,
let alone twice a week, except on very soarable days!
We do have currency requirements, which vary from at
least once flight every three weeks for early solo
pilots up to eight weeks for very experienced pilots.
After that you will need check flights.

Del Copeland

At 06:12 29 December 2007, Mike Schumann wrote:
Winch launching can be much more dangerous than aerotow
if you don't have
the proper training and stay current. If you have
a club with both winch
launching and aerotow, and members focus on one or
the other, you're fine.
The problem is with a typical pilot who only flies
one or two times a week
and occasionally plays around with winches.

Many US clubs are relatively small compared to some
European operations. On
a busy day, we have maybe 20 people show up. On a
typical day, we don't
even have enough interest to get all 5 of our club
gliders onto the flight
line. There's no way, in that environment that you
are going to have enough
manpower and interest to haul out the winch and the
tow plane. The
inevitable result is that the winch will only come
out for special
occasions, and someone is going to get hurt.

And that doesn't even go into the economic issues,
where the big
attractiveness of the winch is to completely eliminate
the costs associated
with owning and operating a tow plane.

Mike Schumann

'Del C' wrote in message
...
Why not? Many European clubs offer both winch and
aerotow
launches, including my own. Some members only ever
aerotow and some (usually the less well off) only
winch
launch. Most members do both, depending on the conditions,
what they can afford, and what they want to do. A
winch
launch costs less than a third of the cost of an aerotow,
so it is a cheap way of staying current during the
winter when it is rarely thermic in the UK. About
two-thirds of our launches are on the winch, so we
can make do with fewer tug aircraft than would be
the
case if we were an all aerotow operation.

The only safety issue is to make sure that aerotows
and winch launches don't happen at the same time,
to
eliminate the risk of the tug flying into the winch
cable. We have a 'launch point controller' to make
sure that this is the case.

Del Copeland

At 03:42 29 December 2007, Mike Schumann wrote:

snip
In order to be a safe and successful with winch launching,
you need to make
a 100% commitment. You can't run winches and tows
in parallel, if people
are going to get and stay proficient in winch launching.
In addition, the
only way winches are economically justifiable is if
you totally eliminate
the overhead, operating, and maintenance costs associated
with a tow plane.








--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

We also do both at our airport here in the US. We also
have a winch captain or you might know them as GOD
(Glider Operations Director). It's the same as Del
writes below.
Sam

At 05:42 29 December 2007, Del C wrote:
Why not? Many European clubs offer both winch and aerotow
launches, including my own. Some members only ever
aerotow and some (usually the less well off) only winch
launch. Most members do both, depending on the conditions,
what they can afford, and what they want to do. A winch
launch costs less than a third of the cost of an aerotow,
so it is a cheap way of staying current during the
winter when it is rarely thermic in the UK. About
two-thirds of our launches are on the winch, so we
can make do with fewer tug aircraft than would be the
case if we were an all aerotow operation.

The only safety issue is to make sure that aerotows
and winch launches don't happen at the same time, to
eliminate the risk of the tug flying into the winch
cable. We have a 'launch point controller' to make
sure that this is the case.

Del Copeland

At 03:42 29 December 2007, Mike Schumann wrote:

snip
In order to be a safe and successful with winch launching,
you need to make
a 100% commitment. You can't run winches and tows
in parallel, if people
are going to get and stay proficient in winch launching.
In addition, the
only way winches are economically justifiable is if
you totally eliminate
the overhead, operating, and maintenance costs associated
with a tow plane.

Hmmm! I don't think that we want to call our launch
point controllers GODs. Some of them are power mad
as it is!

Only kidding folks! Many of the weekend and evening
ones at our club are volunteers. They just need to
be responsible members who have undergone a short course
in the safety aspects of the job. It also helps if
they can develop eyes in the backs of their heads,
voices like foghorns to shout at people who are just
about to walk in front of a landing glider or a tug
taking off, and a steely manner to deal with members
who do stupid things on the ground or in the air.

Happy New Year
Del C

P.S. This is another posting that disappeared into
the gp.net black hole at the first attempt!


At 14:48 29 December 2007, Sam Discusflyer wrote:
We also do both at our airport here in the US. We also
have a winch captain or you might know them as GOD
(Glider Operations Director). It's the same as Del
writes below.
Sam

At 05:42 29 December 2007, Del C wrote:
Why not? Many European clubs offer both winch and aerotow
launches, including my own. Some members only ever
aerotow and some (usually the less well off) only winch
launch. Most members do both, depending on the conditions,
what they can afford, and what they want to do. A winch
launch costs less than a third of the cost of an aerotow,
so it is a cheap way of staying current during the
winter when it is rarely thermic in the UK. About
two-thirds of our launches are on the winch, so we
can make do with fewer tug aircraft than would be the
case if we were an all aerotow operation.

The only safety issue is to make sure that aerotows
and winch launches don't happen at the same time, to
eliminate the risk of the tug flying into the winch
cable. We have a 'launch point controller' to make
sure that this is the case.

Del Copeland

At 03:42 29 December 2007, Mike Schumann wrote:

snip
In order to be a safe and successful with winch launching,
you need to make
a 100% commitment. You can't run winches and tows
in parallel, if people
are going to get and stay proficient in winch launching.
In addition, the
only way winches are economically justifiable is if
you totally eliminate
the overhead, operating, and maintenance costs associated
with a tow plane.

Soaring in the Future???...........Was the topic! Hard to predict.
Much of the world still calls the sport "Gliding" Also, what future?
5 years 20 or 40 years?
Launch methods may have something to do with it. In Germany now, some
clubs are practicing bungee launches again, mostly to show the kids
some fun? On the other hand, the fathers and Grandfathers (Geezers)
not only try to fly 1000 km Distances during the summer but also
during their Winter in the southern hemisphere. There are several
soaring sites in Namibia alone, that you can check up on at the Online
Contest site (OLC).....what they are flying, and the hours and
Distances they are loging. Those 1000 km hunters are almost
exclusively flying selflaunchers, but have started soaring on winches
a long time ago, with very few exeptions. IMHO, selflaunching is the
future, but it may take some time, since there are so many pure
sailplanes still around, that need towing. Also, those self launch
glas slippers that BTW travel each fall and spring between Europe and
S-Afrika (Containers) are at the top end of performance, they will be
around for a while.

I am all for Winch Launching, I started that way too. I could see some
large commercially operated training sites, winch operated, offering
reasonable training,.sprinkled across the country, but soaring made
easy, would be a self launcher at your closest GA -airport, that you
can reach on that bicycle!... Remeber, all the other launch methods
need additional man power, which really is a $ (money) item. The tow
pilot, the wing runner, winch operator.

I think in the distant future the the self launch will have to change
in the way that they can easily taxi, move on the ground unassisted.
The expensive ones will most likely do that first and out of that
insight there might be evolving a self launch V-Sailplane, that almost
anybody can play with? In the not so distant future not much change,
unless some people make some huge efforts.

Soarski
Gliders Of Aspen (geezer)
..

In the States it seems that you pay everyone from the
instructors and tow pilots down to the guy who runs
with your wingtip. This makes gliding there rather
expensive.

Have you considered the 'mutual self help' system we
have in the UK, where the vast majority of these tasks
are carried out by suitably qualified club members
who don't get paid? Professional instructors, tug pilots
and winch drivers are very much in the minority, except
at the biggest clubs who run a seven-day-a-week operation.


A self launching capacity seems to add about £20k to
the cost of a new glider, and also makes it more expensive
to insure and maintain. You will also need to qualify
for an additional licence. It's also not quite the
same thing as a pure glider. Having said that, if I
won the National Lottery I would probably buy a self
launcher.

Del Copeland


At 04:12 31 December 2007, wrote:


I am all for Winch Launching, I started that way too.
I could see some
large commercially operated training sites, winch operated,
offering
reasonable training,.sprinkled across the country,
but soaring made
easy, would be a self launcher at your closest GA -airport,
that you
can reach on that bicycle!... Remeber, all the other
launch methods
need additional man power, which really is a $ (money)
item. The tow
pilot, the wing runner, winch operator.

I think in the distant future the the self launch will
have to change
in the way that they can easily taxi, move on the ground
unassisted.
The expensive ones will most likely do that first and
out of that
insight there might be evolving a self launch V-Sailplane,
that almost
anybody can play with? In the not so distant future
not much change,
unless some people make some huge efforts.

Soarski
Gliders Of Aspen (geezer)
..

Many of the clubs in the US are mutual self help. One of the attractions
for motor-gliders is not just the fact that you don't need help, but more
importantly that you can fly from your local metro airport, instead of
having to drive an hour or two to a rural location that has a glider
operation. Then add the ability to do downwind cross country dashes, and be
able to fly home when you are done, and you start getting peoples attention,
particularly those who have more money than time.

Mike Schumann

"Del C" wrote in message
...
In the States it seems that you pay everyone from the
instructors and tow pilots down to the guy who runs
with your wingtip. This makes gliding there rather
expensive.

Have you considered the 'mutual self help' system we
have in the UK, where the vast majority of these tasks
are carried out by suitably qualified club members
who don't get paid? Professional instructors, tug pilots
and winch drivers are very much in the minority, except
at the biggest clubs who run a seven-day-a-week operation.


A self launching capacity seems to add about £20k to
the cost of a new glider, and also makes it more expensive
to insure and maintain. You will also need to qualify
for an additional licence. It's also not quite the
same thing as a pure glider. Having said that, if I
won the National Lottery I would probably buy a self
launcher.

Del Copeland


At 04:12 31 December 2007, wrote:


I am all for Winch Launching, I started that way too.
I could see some
large commercially operated training sites, winch operated,
offering
reasonable training,.sprinkled across the country,
but soaring made
easy, would be a self launcher at your closest GA -airport,
that you
can reach on that bicycle!... Remeber, all the other
launch methods
need additional man power, which really is a $ (money)
item. The tow
pilot, the wing runner, winch operator.

I think in the distant future the the self launch will
have to change
in the way that they can easily taxi, move on the ground
unassisted.
The expensive ones will most likely do that first and
out of that
insight there might be evolving a self launch V-Sailplane,
that almost
anybody can play with? In the not so distant future
not much change,
unless some people make some huge efforts.

Soarski
Gliders Of Aspen (geezer)
..








--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com