Is Rafale dead?

To clear the record, I'm Canadian, not European. So *you* shouldn't say
"you" without knowing who *you* are talking about. And as I mentioned
before, I'll leave my comments regarding France's behavior vs. U.S.'s
behavior to stand. I'll just throw in a very self-serving quote I came
across recently ;-) :

"Canada- lynchpin of the English speaking world, whose relations of friendly
intimacy with the United States on the one hand and her unswerving fidelity
to the British Commonwealth and the motherland on the other. Canada - the
link which joins together these great branches of the human family"-Winston
Churchill

Please remember that my posts have not been meant to attack the U.S.
Rather, they are an effort to promote an understanding of the similarity of
the behaviors of two different countries, in an effort to reduce the
baseless France-bashing some folks appear to be engaging in. Regards,

Tony

I thought Europeans were against "preventive wars". I thought Europeans
were against wars not fought for one's own defense. That seems to be
what you have been telling us since September 11, 2001.

Before the US officially entered the war in 1941 America was providing
massive amounts of aid to Britain and Russia and Army Air Corp pilots
were fighting the Japanese in China under the transparent cover of being
"mercenaries". We were doing a great deal to keep you Germans from
destroying the world long before December 8, 1941.

"Tony Volk" wrote in message
...
To clear the record, I'm Canadian, not European. So *you* shouldn't
say
"you" without knowing who *you* are talking about. And as I mentioned
before, I'll leave my comments regarding France's behavior vs. U.S.'s
behavior to stand. I'll just throw in a very self-serving quote I came
across recently ;-) :

"Canada- lynchpin of the English speaking world, whose relations of
friendly
intimacy with the United States on the one hand and her unswerving
fidelity
to the British Commonwealth and the motherland on the other. Canada - the
link which joins together these great branches of the human
family"-Winston
Churchill

Please remember that my posts have not been meant to attack the U.S.
Rather, they are an effort to promote an understanding of the similarity
of
the behaviors of two different countries, in an effort to reduce the
baseless France-bashing some folks appear to be engaging in. Regards,

Baseless? Have you been hiding under a rock for the past year or so? A lot
of us consider the recent French governmental prouncements to be a quite
nice "base" upon which to embark on a nice bashing or three.

Brooks


Tony

I thought Europeans were against "preventive wars". I thought Europeans
were against wars not fought for one's own defense. That seems to be
what you have been telling us since September 11, 2001.

Before the US officially entered the war in 1941 America was providing
massive amounts of aid to Britain and Russia and Army Air Corp pilots
were fighting the Japanese in China under the transparent cover of being
"mercenaries". We were doing a great deal to keep you Germans from
destroying the world long before December 8, 1941.

Before the US officially entered the war in 1941 America was providing
massive amounts of aid to Britain and Russia and Army Air Corp pilots
were fighting the Japanese in China under the transparent cover of being
"mercenaries". We were doing a great deal to keep you Germans from
destroying the world long before December 8, 1941.

Would you want do describe this massive aid from USA to Soviet Union
before december 8 1941?

Hell yes

The Lend Lease act was amended to include the USSR following
the invasion of Germany and between October 1941 and June 42
the US supplied 1285 aircraft , 2249 tanks, 81,000 machine guns,
37,000 trucks, 56,000 file telephones and 30,000 tons of
explosives.

This is of course a great shock to you, but june 1942 comes after december
1941.

"tadaa" wrote in message ...
Before the US officially entered the war in 1941 America was providing
massive amounts of aid to Britain and Russia and Army Air Corp pilots
were fighting the Japanese in China under the transparent cover of
being
"mercenaries". We were doing a great deal to keep you Germans from
destroying the world long before December 8, 1941.

Would you want do describe this massive aid from USA to Soviet Union
before december 8 1941?

Hell yes

The Lend Lease act was amended to include the USSR following
the invasion of Germany and between October 1941 and June 42
the US supplied 1285 aircraft , 2249 tanks, 81,000 machine guns,
37,000 trucks, 56,000 file telephones and 30,000 tons of
explosives.

This is of course a great shock to you, but june 1942 comes after december
1941.

Gee, then you must have been floored to realize that October 1941 is prior
to December 1941, huh Genius?

Brooks

Gee, then you must have been floored to realize that October 1941 is prior
to December 1941, huh Genius?

And in that time the amount of material sent was ... what?

the orginal claim was :

"Before the US officially entered the war in 1941 America was providing
massive amounts of aid to Britain and Russia"

And I'm claiming that US aid to SU wasn't that massive at the beginning.

" Congress appropriated 13 billion dollars for the lend-lease program by
October 28, 1941, but the movement of goods overseas got under way slowly.
Our munitions industry was still largely in the tooling up state. "
" The first convoy of American and British cargo ships steamed into the
harbor of Murmansk while the German armies were hammering at the gates of
Moscow. Our aid to the U.S.S.R. was relatively insignificant in 1941, but it
bore the promise of much more to come. "

LL became important to SU in later of the war, because it allowed SU to
commit it's own resources to war, but to call it massive even before US
joined in war is false.

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:08:20 -0500, "Tony Volk" wrote:

To clear the record, I'm Canadian, not European. So *you* shouldn't say
"you" without knowing who *you* are talking about. And as I mentioned
before, I'll leave my comments regarding France's behavior vs. U.S.'s
behavior to stand. I'll just throw in a very self-serving quote I came
across recently ;-) :

"Canada- lynchpin of the English speaking world, whose relations of friendly
intimacy with the United States on the one hand and her unswerving fidelity
to the British Commonwealth and the motherland on the other. Canada - the
link which joins together these great branches of the human family"-Winston
Churchill

Please remember that my posts have not been meant to attack the U.S.
Rather, they are an effort to promote an understanding of the similarity of
the behaviors of two different countries, in an effort to reduce the
baseless France-bashing some folks appear to be engaging in. Regards,

Tony

The French are enemies of the US, if you choose to live with your head in
the sand, so be it.

Al Minyard

"tadaa" wrote in message ...
Before the US officially entered the war in 1941 America was providing
massive amounts of aid to Britain and Russia and Army Air Corp pilots
were fighting the Japanese in China under the transparent cover of
being
"mercenaries". We were doing a great deal to keep you Germans from
destroying the world long before December 8, 1941.

Would you want do describe this massive aid from USA to Soviet Union
before december 8 1941?

Hell yes

The Lend Lease act was amended to include the USSR following
the invasion of Germany and between October 1941 and June 42
the US supplied 1285 aircraft , 2249 tanks, 81,000 machine guns,
37,000 trucks, 56,000 file telephones and 30,000 tons of
explosives.

This is of course a great shock to you, but june 1942 comes after december
1941.



And October 1941 is before it. Any aid that reached the USSR by June 1941
was almost certainly ordered before Dec 8. The shipment alone
took several weeks and the aircraft/tanks etc had to be made first.

Keith

"tadaa" wrote in message ...


And I'm claiming that US aid to SU wasn't that massive at the beginning.

" Congress appropriated 13 billion dollars for the lend-lease program by
October 28, 1941, but the movement of goods overseas got under way slowly.
Our munitions industry was still largely in the tooling up state. "


$13 billion 1941 dollars sounds a pretty massive amount to me and
supplies of food and fuel and trucks were every bit as important
as munitions.

As Zhukov himself said after the war

"It is now said that the Allies never helped us . . . However, one cannot
deny
that the Americans gave us so much material, without which we could not have
formed our reserves and ***could not have continued the war*** . . . we had
no
explosives and powder. There was none to equip rifle bullets. The Americans
actually came to our assistance with powder and explosives. And how much
sheet
steel did they give us. We really could not have quickly put right our
production of tanks if the Americans had not helped with steel. And today it
seems as though we had all this ourselves in abundance."


" The first convoy of American and British cargo ships steamed into the
harbor of Murmansk while the German armies were hammering at the gates of
Moscow. Our aid to the U.S.S.R. was relatively insignificant in 1941, but
it
bore the promise of much more to come. "


That convoy arrived before Dec 8 of course, in fact the first convoy to
Northern Russia arrived in August 1941

LL became important to SU in later of the war, because it allowed SU to
commit it's own resources to war, but to call it massive even before US
joined in war is false.


No 13 billion 1941 dollars is massive, the fact that getting the aid to
Russia
either via the northern route or through Iran took many weeks doesnt alter
the
fact that massive amounts of aid were approved and dispatched BEFORE
the US entered the war.

Keith

The world by Al Minyard is so simple to understand....
What a lucky guy!



"Alan Minyard" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:08:20 -0500, "Tony Volk"
wrote:

To clear the record, I'm Canadian, not European. So *you* shouldn't
say
"you" without knowing who *you* are talking about. And as I mentioned
before, I'll leave my comments regarding France's behavior vs. U.S.'s
behavior to stand. I'll just throw in a very self-serving quote I came
across recently ;-) :

"Canada- lynchpin of the English speaking world, whose relations of
friendly
intimacy with the United States on the one hand and her unswerving
fidelity
to the British Commonwealth and the motherland on the other. Canada - the
link which joins together these great branches of the human
family"-Winston
Churchill

Please remember that my posts have not been meant to attack the U.S.
Rather, they are an effort to promote an understanding of the similarity
of
the behaviors of two different countries, in an effort to reduce the
baseless France-bashing some folks appear to be engaging in. Regards,

Tony

The French are enemies of the US, if you choose to live with your head in
the sand, so be it.

Al Minyard

Keith Willshaw wrote:

And I'm claiming that US aid to SU wasn't that massive at the beginning.

" Congress appropriated 13 billion dollars for the lend-lease program by
October 28, 1941, but the movement of goods overseas got under way slowly.
Our munitions industry was still largely in the tooling up state. "

$13 billion 1941 dollars sounds a pretty massive amount to me and
supplies of food and fuel and trucks were every bit as important
as munitions.

But that $13 billion was the whole LL, UK propably got quite a chunk of
it. And at the beginning largest part of US LL shipments was food.

"It is now said that the Allies never helped us . . . However, one
cannot deny that the Americans gave us so much material, without
which we could not have formed our reserves and ***could not have
continued the war***"

I don't doubt that, but was he talking about the aid USSR received
before USA joined in the war?

" The first convoy of American and British cargo ships steamed into the
harbor of Murmansk while the German armies were hammering at the gates of
Moscow. Our aid to the U.S.S.R. was relatively insignificant in 1941, but
it bore the promise of much more to come. "

That convoy arrived before Dec 8 of course, in fact the first convoy to
Northern Russia arrived in August 1941

LL became important to SU in later of the war, because it allowed SU to
commit it's own resources to war, but to call it massive even before US
joined in war is false.

No 13 billion 1941 dollars is massive, the fact that getting the aid to
Russia either via the northern route or through Iran took many weeks
doesnt alter the fact that massive amounts of aid were approved and
dispatched BEFORE the US entered the war.

As I said earlier that 13 billion is the total LL approved by US
congress 28th of october, it wasn't all earmarked for USSR (UK, China,
Greece, Norway (don't know if there were others)).
Is there somewhere a list of good received by USSR on monthly basis or
yearly basis?