BA 777 crash at Heathrow

Rich Ahrens wrote in news:4791755f$0$27489
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news:eaa459d0-359d-488c-831e-
:

On Jan 18, 11:42 am, wrote:
On Jan 18, 9:58 am, "Al G" wrote:

"Jay Maynard" wrote in message
...
On 2008-01-18, wrote:
Boeing sent an AOG team
^^^
What's an AOG team?
--
"Aircraft On Ground"?
Al G
Yes, AOG is airplane on ground. Replacement parts marked AOG are
given the highest priority of any cargo by airlines when they are
shipped, even higher than medical. Keeping an airplane on the
ground
costs $$$, and everyone in the business knows that.

Dean
It looks like that airframe is destined for the scrap heap, wings,
body all look shot.


I'd say it will be repeaired. It's amazing what they fix.

FWIW, this comes from a BBC report:

Judging by the television pictures, it looks like a wreck, says Mark
Knight of AMS Systems Engineering, which supplies aircraft recovery
equipment to Heathrow Airport and British Airways.

"They will remove it as quickly as possible without much consideration
to secondary damage. I don't think it will be put back into service."

Had the wings been unscathed and there was a chance the aircraft could
fly again, a delicate recovery operation would begin, by lifting the
aircraft on airbags, he says.

The more likely scenario, he thinks, is the wings will be removed, the
fuselage lifted by crane on to a truck and taken away to be stripped.



Hmm. Wel, i'vw seen very badly damaged wings repaired. Not as bad as
that, mind you.
We have an airplane that got bent bad a couple of years ago. Took them
about five weeks to repair, bu tthe gear didn't go through the wing,
either.
Our one flies like a banana.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Hmm. Wel, i'vw seen very badly damaged wings repaired. Not as bad as
that, mind you.
We have an airplane that got bent bad a couple of years ago. Took them
about five weeks to repair, bu tthe gear didn't go through the wing,
either.
Our one flies like a banana.

That doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement.

Rich Ahrens wrote in news:47917ed9$0$27498
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Hmm. Wel, i'vw seen very badly damaged wings repaired. Not as bad as
that, mind you.
We have an airplane that got bent bad a couple of years ago. Took them
about five weeks to repair, bu tthe gear didn't go through the wing,
either.
Our one flies like a banana.

That doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement.


It isn't. But it does fly.
It's pretty easy to bend the things. in fact, we take off pressurised. just
a bit, not too much. .125 PSI as soon as we start engines, in fact. The
reason for this is to add structural rigidity to the fuse when it's
rattling down the runway.
To get an idea of how this works, take a 2 quart mostly empty coke bottle
and try and bend it with the top off. Now put the top on and shake it and
try again...

We can take off unpressurised ( for performance. having the engnes provide
some pressurisation uses power) but it's preferable to go lightly
prssurised.


Bertie

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:17:17 -0500, "Bob Furtaw"
wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron A."
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:53 PM
Subject: BA 777 crash at Heathrow

It almost sounds like reverse thrust came on at least one engine.

Steeper than normal glideslope and offset from runway center line.

"Kloudy via AviationKB.com" u33403@uwe wrote in message
news:7e5e63dd56a39@uwe...
Blueskies wrote:
What the heck happened? Fuel starvation? Doesn't sound like wind shear
could have been an issue.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...inplane17.html

passenger hack into the entertainment system?
--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com


I'm betting on wind shear or microburst...or he was told "land and hold
short" Bob F.


Bob

If he was told to "land and hold" this could well set up pilot to
reduce A/S to try to comply and getting behind the power curve. With a
excessive rate of descent he could have cobbed the engines and there
was not enough power to overcome the behind the power curve sink at
the altitude he had and he hit short.

I'm sure all remember early airbus bird, that with the Company Pilot
and Airbus Wheels in it, made a slow low altitude pass over, I forget
just what they were having on the ground,and bird got behind the power
curve and sank into the trees and crashed. Red faces all over Airbus.

We really don't have enough data to make a good professional
evaluation of what happened so this just a sanerio of what could have
happened.. Anxious to see what black boxes show.

Pardon any misspelled words. Had out patient laser surgery and will
have a catheter and bag for next thee days (


Big John

Big John wrote in
:

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:17:17 -0500, "Bob Furtaw"
wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron A."
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:53 PM
Subject: BA 777 crash at Heathrow

It almost sounds like reverse thrust came on at least one engine.

Steeper than normal glideslope and offset from runway center line.

"Kloudy via AviationKB.com" u33403@uwe wrote in message
news:7e5e63dd56a39@uwe...
Blueskies wrote:
What the heck happened? Fuel starvation? Doesn't sound like wind
shear could have been an issue.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...rld/2004130291
_apbrita
inplane17.html

passenger hack into the entertainment system?
--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com


I'm betting on wind shear or microburst...or he was told "land and
hold short" Bob F.


Bob

If he was told to "land and hold" this could well set up pilot to
reduce A/S to try to comply and getting behind the power curve.
No, he wouldn't have been told that for a several reasons.
One, th erunway has no intersecting runways (27L) tow, we just don't do
that anymore and three, the airplane would have bitched at him if he
did.

With a
excessive rate of descent he could have cobbed the engines and there
was not enough power to overcome the behind the power curve sink at
the altitude he had and he hit short.

Nah, the modern engines have spool up times the same as pistons.


I'm sure all remember early airbus bird, that with the Company Pilot
and Airbus Wheels in it, made a slow low altitude pass over, I forget
just what they were having on the ground,and bird got behind the power
curve and sank into the trees and crashed. Red faces all over Airbus.


Well, they didn;t so much get behind the power curve as fool the
airplane into thinking it was going to land. When they decided to go
asround, the airplane decided to land. By the time they got it all
sorted out it was too late.


We really don't have enough data to make a good professional
evaluation of what happened so this just a sanerio of what could have
happened.. Anxious to see what black boxes show.


Well, exaclty.

Pardon any misspelled words. Had out patient laser surgery and will
have a catheter and bag for next thee days (


Ouch!

On the plus side I have no excuse for my tpyos!

Bertie

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:59:24 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

"Ridge" wrote in
:


I saw one report that said the pilot reported loosing all electronics
on final.

Well, the news, ya know?

If they lost both engines they would have lost a lot of electrics unless
they had the APU runnning, which they would not have done most likely.


Bertie


------------------------------------
Bertie

Whar rpm would the 777 engines windmill on final approach speed if you
know.

Also what RPM would the generators/alternators drop off line?

Do any of those brds have a RAT?

Big John

Big John wrote in
:

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:59:24 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

"Ridge" wrote in
:


I saw one report that said the pilot reported loosing all
electronics
on final.

Well, the news, ya know?

If they lost both engines they would have lost a lot of electrics
unless
they had the APU runnning, which they would not have done most likely.


Bertie


------------------------------------
Bertie

Whar rpm would the 777 engines windmill on final approach speed if you
know.

Well, modern jets are all expressed in percentage ( TO RPM would be
about 100%) You'd be looking at around 60% N1 when you're dirty and
stabilised, and they would have been so at 600'.

Also what RPM would the generators/alternators drop off line?

Pretty low. They have a constant speed drive to keep the freq steady and
that can cope down to about 45% N2 ( I think it's a two spool engine,
but it might be three) You lose a genny pretty quickly after an engine
failure. The APU door was open, so they may have been runing it for the
approach, or they may have tried to start it after the failure, but I
reckon that at 600 feet they had other things on their minds than a few
clocks going black.

Do any of those brds have a RAT?

Yeah,It should be on the right wing root just behing the leading edge.
It'll run hydraulics and electrics. The airplane also has battery power
to provide both essential DC and AC for probably an hour and a half as
well. I was talking briefly to a friend who flies the 777.
They have a lot of additional generators dedicated to the computers. Of
course if they engines aren't running you won't have those either, but
something provided enough for the flight controls, it appears, or they
would have had no control. So something was making sparks.


Bertie

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:02:45 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

Jay Maynard wrote in
m:

On 2008-01-18, wrote:
Boeing sent an AOG team
^^^
What's an AOG team?

Aircraft On Ground. That one fits the description if any one ever did.


Bertie
-------------------------------------------------

Bertie

Air Force used AOCP (Aircraft Out (of) Commission, Parts). Highest
priority.

When I was in PANAMA and we had a bird broken down country we would
take the part and hand to an Airline Pilot going that way (Braniff
many times) who carried in cockpit and handed to the aircrew of our
broken bird. These parts did not go through customs as bird would sit
there for weeks to get part released.

We also helped them the same way if we could. I remember loaning them
parts which they then paid us back from their US stock.. No money
changed hands as all a gentlemans agreement.

Big John

Big John wrote in
:

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:02:45 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

Jay Maynard wrote in
om:

On 2008-01-18, wrote:
Boeing sent an AOG team
^^^
What's an AOG team?

Aircraft On Ground. That one fits the description if any one ever did.


Bertie
-------------------------------------------------

Bertie

Air Force used AOCP (Aircraft Out (of) Commission, Parts). Highest
priority.

When I was in PANAMA and we had a bird broken down country we would
take the part and hand to an Airline Pilot going that way (Braniff
many times) who carried in cockpit and handed to the aircrew of our
broken bird. These parts did not go through customs as bird would sit
there for weeks to get part released.

We also helped them the same way if we could. I remember loaning them
parts which they then paid us back from their US stock.. No money
changed hands as all a gentlemans agreement.

I think this is ICAO. You often see AOG tagged on crates going cargo. As
another poster said, it's given high priority during shipment.


Bertie

Bertie

------------------long clip-----------------------

I have time in C-130, C-121 and C-141 but nothing in the modern Jet
transport airliners. Weren't around when I retired.

Want to thank you for the Tech data you gave in basic post that I
clipped to save space.

I ask lots of questions and learn something new every day.

What bird do you normally fly or are you multiple currently qualified?

Big John