Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Private wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Any stall in the pattern can be a serious problem. You need stall and
yaw rate to induce spin. Of all the possible scenarios to have if you
manage to be ham handed enough to get into a stall in the pattern, a
stall from a slip is the most anti-spin. Then comes a coordinated stall
with no yaw induced at the break, and finally the worst condition is a
stall from a skidding turn. No matter which scenario, angle of attack
MUST be lowered, and any yaw rate MUST be neutralized IMMEDIATELY!


--
Dudley Henriques

Can you please elaborate on the stall from a slip condition.

I am fond of the bush pilot style pattern, using180 degree constant
slipping turn to final and would also be interested in your thoughts on
these.

TIA
Happy landings,
I see no problems at all with a constant slipping turn approach, and in
fact favor this type myself when flying prop fighters such as the P51 and
the F8F and even the Pitts Spcial due to the better visibility during
these approaces over the nose and ahead and inside the turn as the
approach is flown.

Slips are basically anti spin. You can actually increase the angle of
attack available in front of your critical angle of attack as you deepen a
slip. The ultimate example of this would be knife edge flight where
forward stick pressure is required to reduce angle of attack to near the 0
lift point on the wing.
Of course you won't be doing any knife edge flight on a slipping approach,
but the slip you are in is still anti spin.
Even if you stall the airplane in a slip, the likely result will be a
break over the top, which is a much better stall break than a skidding
stall break which will usually break under the bottom. You have much more
time to recover from a slipping stall entry than you do from a skid entry.

The bottom line is that it's quite safe to fly a slipping approach if you
are aware, flying properly and watching what you are doing.

--
Dudley Henriques

Thanks for the reply. Why is the stall from a descending slipping turn more
likely to result in a break over the top? Will this also be the likely
break in a descending straight slip? I suspect that fuselage shadowing may
play a role?

Seems like I need to go do some more, nothing is as good fun as real world
practice on the left side of the envelope.

Happy landings,

Jim Stewart wrote in
:

skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)

I hesitate to add to this discussion because
I'm not an instructor, just a rather slow
student who's not qualified to give advice
that might kill someone.

My instructor carefully pointed out the difference
between a stall on final as opposed to a snap
spin. A stall might be recoverable with no more
damage than a looseness of the bowels whereas
a spin could really fsk up your day.

The gist of his advice was that if you keep the
turn coordinated or even add a little extra
aileron, the up wing will have to come all the
way down through level before it will spin,
giving you time get the nose down and level the
wings before that spin can develop.

You turn too tight base to finals and lose the plot with speed and co-
ordination, the airplane could spin. Unless it's an Ercoupe, of course.


Bertie

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
Jim Stewart wrote in
:

skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)

I hesitate to add to this discussion because
I'm not an instructor, just a rather slow
student who's not qualified to give advice
that might kill someone.

My instructor carefully pointed out the difference
between a stall on final as opposed to a snap
spin. A stall might be recoverable with no more
damage than a looseness of the bowels whereas
a spin could really fsk up your day.

The gist of his advice was that if you keep the
turn coordinated or even add a little extra
aileron, the up wing will have to come all the
way down through level before it will spin,
giving you time get the nose down and level the
wings before that spin can develop.

You turn too tight base to finals and lose the plot with speed and co-
ordination, the airplane could spin. Unless it's an Ercoupe, of course.


Bertie

My personal suspicion is that most of the accidents involving a tightening
turn to final also involve a failure to allow for a tailwind on base, and
very rarely occur in calm conditions.

That mainly serves to underscore your earlier point that the difference
between a level and descending turn is rarely discussed because it is
trivial--probably less than 1%. It also works in favor of Dudleys point
about using excess altitude to unload the turn--which could be used to
salvage the approach or facilitate a missed approach as needed. (Actually,
both of you made both points in different ways.)

Peter

"Peter Dohm" wrote in
:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
Jim Stewart wrote in
:

skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I
was going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base
to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway
centerline as possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and
usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept
thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep
bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. Some of you instructors
and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a
practice.)

I hesitate to add to this discussion because
I'm not an instructor, just a rather slow
student who's not qualified to give advice
that might kill someone.

My instructor carefully pointed out the difference
between a stall on final as opposed to a snap
spin. A stall might be recoverable with no more
damage than a looseness of the bowels whereas
a spin could really fsk up your day.

The gist of his advice was that if you keep the
turn coordinated or even add a little extra
aileron, the up wing will have to come all the
way down through level before it will spin,
giving you time get the nose down and level the
wings before that spin can develop.

You turn too tight base to finals and lose the plot with speed and
co- ordination, the airplane could spin. Unless it's an Ercoupe, of
course.


Bertie

My personal suspicion is that most of the accidents involving a
tightening turn to final also involve a failure to allow for a
tailwind on base, and very rarely occur in calm conditions.

Yes, I agree.

That mainly serves to underscore your earlier point that the
difference between a level and descending turn is rarely discussed
because it is trivial--probably less than 1%. It also works in favor
of Dudleys point about using excess altitude to unload the turn--which
could be used to salvage the approach or facilitate a missed approach
as needed. (Actually, both of you made both points in different
ways.)


Yes, I've done it alright. Simple if you know how...


Bertie

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
.. .
My instructor carefully pointed out the difference
between a stall on final as opposed to a snap
spin.

I suspect a misuse in terminology, IMHO normal usage of the term 'snap' is
to refer to a 'snap roll' (or as the Brits would say, 'flick roll') which is
a roll performed with (loading and) rudder only and is really a spin in the
logitudinal plane or direction of flight.

A stall might be recoverable with no more
damage than a looseness of the bowels whereas
a spin could really fsk up your day.

The gist of his advice was that if you keep the
turn coordinated or even add a little extra
aileron, the up wing will have to come all the
way down through level before it will spin,
giving you time get the nose down and level the
wings before that spin can develop.

IMHO, a combination of stall and yaw in a decending turn (arrival stall) is
most likely to result in a spin under the bottom, where the aircraft will
enter the spin by dropping the lower or inside wing. On the other hand, a
stall combined with yaw in a climbing turn (departure stall) is most likely
to result in a spin over the top where the aircraft will enter the spin by
dropping the upper or outside wing. I suspect that you or your instructor
may be confusing the two. Your instructor is correct that most consider a
slip to be more spin resistant than a skid and some/most will maintain that
a turning slip is even more spin resistant than cordinated flight.

IMHO stall/spin awareness training should include lots of demonstrations (at
safe altitude (where recover is made @2000')) of at least incipient (and
preferably full spin) spin entry (and recovery) from both arrival and
departure stall spins and demonstrations of the circumstances likely to lead
to each.

OTOH, a flat turn to final can quickly develop
into a spin before you can get it under control.

IMHO, A flat turn is most likely to be a skid, which most consider to be the
uncoordinated condition most likely to result in a spin.

Happy landings,

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:16:23 -0800, Jim Stewart wrote:

I hesitate to add to this discussion because
I'm not an instructor, just a rather slow
student who's not qualified to give advice
that might kill someone.

I hope this isn't copyrighted because I just stole it.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!
I hesitate to add to this discussion because I'm not an instructor,
just a rather slow student who's not qualified to give advice that
might kill someone.

"skym" wrote in message
...
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)

Instead of asking about keeping the ball centered, perhaps you should be
asking why you elected to flirt with a pilot error fatality by cranking and
yanking for the sake of a few style points... So what if you overshoot the
turn????

Note: as others are beating to death - stall speed doesn't change with bank.
Stall speed changes with increasing G (increasing lift). Increasing G comes
from pulling on the yoke/stick. Period. No pull, no G, no increase in stall.
More pull, more G, higher stall. Wings level, wings banked, wings upside
down - makes no difference.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way D0t C0m wrote in message
news:tOKdnXSOOaMvyEXanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
Stall speed changes with increasing G (increasing lift). Increasing G
comes

Strictly speaking, the increasing G correlates to an increasing coefficient
of lift which comes from an increasing angle of attack which comes from the
moment generated by the tail which comes from an increasing pull (assuming a
constant airspeed).

(just trying to get a head start on the nit picking)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

On Mar 13, 9:14*am, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way
D0t C0m wrote:
"skym" wrote in message

...

While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. *I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, *I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. *Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)

Instead of asking about keeping the ball centered, perhaps you should be
asking why you elected to flirt with a pilot error fatality by cranking and
yanking for the sake of a few style points... So what if you overshoot the
turn????

Note: as others are beating to death - stall speed doesn't change with bank.
Stall speed changes with increasing G (increasing lift). Increasing G comes
from pulling on the yoke/stick. Period. No pull, no G, no increase in stall.
More pull, more G, higher stall. *Wings level, wings banked, wings upside
down - makes no difference.

so if i am doing a steep descending turn , I wont be pulling back on
the stick as much as a steep level turn,
hence less g ? This would seem to contradict others comments that
you pull the same no of g in a bank whether it is level
or descending. I am still confused.
Terry

On Mar 12, 7:14 pm, terry wrote:
On Mar 13, 9:14 am, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way

D0t C0m wrote:
"skym" wrote in message

...

While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)

Instead of asking about keeping the ball centered, perhaps you should be
asking why you elected to flirt with a pilot error fatality by cranking and
yanking for the sake of a few style points... So what if you overshoot the
turn????

Note: as others are beating to death - stall speed doesn't change with bank.
Stall speed changes with increasing G (increasing lift). Increasing G comes
from pulling on the yoke/stick. Period. No pull, no G, no increase in stall.
More pull, more G, higher stall. Wings level, wings banked, wings upside
down - makes no difference.

so if i am doing a steep descending turn , I wont be pulling back on
the stick as much as a steep level turn,
hence less g ? This would seem to contradict others comments that
you pull the same no of g in a bank whether it is level
or descending. I am still confused.
Terry

In a coordinated descending turn, the inside wing is at a
higher AOA than the outside wing and will stall first. In a skidding
descending turn, the difference is even greater and is asking for big
trouble. In a slipping turn, the inside wing's AOA decreases and is
much closer to the AOA of the outside wing. Danger of wing-drop
stalling is lessened.
In a climbing turn, the outside wing is at a higher AOA and
will stall first.

I built a device that demonstrates this visually so that our
students could get a handle on it. I keep promising to post pictures
of it somewhere. Can someone suggest to this Internet Ignoramus where
a good spot would be for that?

Dan