THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:26:19 -0500, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:


He was current in a "combat aircraft in use in Viet Nam". The F-102
(including ANG crews) was deployed at Udorn, Danang and Tan Son Nhut
among other place.

Your memory is apparently failing. See Juvat's comments elsewhere on this
subject.

Fact--the F-102 was deployed to the SEA theater during the time GWB
volunteered for Palace Alert duty; the last F-102's apparently did not pull
out of Thailand/Vietnam until the latter part of 1970.


If I was an F-102 pilot who was hot to trot, I think I might have
volunteered
to
transition into one of the birds actively used in the shooting war,
like the
F-105, or whatever equipment they were then using for top covers.

"Top covers"?? What the hell are they? Do you mean MiGCAP? Not a
specialized mission for most of the war, usually flown by F-4s.
Primary job was ground attack, not traditional "fighter" against
"fighter" stuff.

Whatever! I obviously did not fly in VN and am not familiar with the
terms used
there. "Top cover" was a term used in WWII and Korea, son.

......F-102s were deployed for airbase defense intercept
duty throughout the war.

Not according to Juvat.

They were deployed for that role during the timeframe that Bush volunteered
for the mission (late '69, early '70). Juvat prefers to dally with verbal
specifics (he is correct in stating that the F-102 was withdrawn before the
final US pullout, but that does not matter a whit in regards to the issue of
Bush volunteering for what was then a still-ongoing F-102 mission to SEA).


Remember, Bush was ANG, not active force, hence he would have needed
to move out of state and establish residence to find a unit with one
of those aircraft types, which would probably not have gotten him
deployed anyway. Your whole postulate is a non-starter here.

So, follow the thread, contribute relevantly, get your facts
straight,
and reduce the level of your personal agenda.

Would you care to comment on his submission of a "volunteer for o/s
duty"
statement when he knew or should have known that he had insufficient
flying
time
in the bird to be favorably considered? All he had to do was to ask
around,
and
he'd have learned that they wanted people with more hours than he had.
Excuse
me if I conclude that he was just going through the motions but I
can't
think
of any other reason for volunteering for something you know you're not
going
to
get.

Volunteering means a requirement exists and if your volunteer
statement is accepted, you are eligible.

His wasn't, so he wasn't eligible. So what's your point?

Why do you say he was not eligable? Do you think the USAF asked for
volunteers from a pool of individuals who were already determijned not to be
qualified for that mission? Your lack of logic is astounding.


.....There might have been a "desired" hours requirement, but it was a
long
way from "hard and
fast" if you were current in the system.

So what? Are we now going to criticize the people who turned him down? I
made
a point that was critical of him and you're intent on making excuses for
his
behavior. Until you can show me something different (and I know you
can't),
I've concluded that he put in his volunteer statement knowing full well
when he
did it that it wouldn't be approved, and that he did it for
self-aggrandizing
purposes.

You are wrong.


I flew my first F-105 combat to NVN, right out of training with less
than 120 hours after undergraduate pilot training. I flew my first F-4
combat, again to NVN with less than 30 hours in the F-4C (the combat
was in the F-4E).

I don't think lack of hours was any sort of protection from
deployment.

Perhaps not. I've read somewhere that he, even with his 300 hours more or
less,
was not the brightest candle on the F-102 cake. IAC, as I'm sure you know
and
will agree, there are pilots and there are pilots, and they sure as hell
aren't
one just like the other. For all I know, you could have taken up an F-102
with
15 or 20 hours under your belt and done a better job with the bird than he
could
with 500. It's possible.

And meaningless. So you are now critiquing hia lleged skills as an F-102
pilot, huh? Getting desperate, Georgie?

Brooks


George Z.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

That's terrible that after flying all those missions it ended so
shamefully. He flew 62 missions, so I can't be critical of him, but
your group has every right to be. Did you ever talk with your group
mates about how they felt they would have reacted in the same
situation? I honestly have no idea whether I'd be able to get back in
a plane after something like that. I guess nobody does until they're
faced with the situation.

~Michael

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY

I am only telling you this story because he passed away two years ago. I won't
reveal his identity. Let's call him Captain Johnson.
Captain Johnson's plane was badly hit over the target. He and his crew bailed
out. But Johnson never liked to keep his chute harness buckled tight. It gave
him cramps. So he wore it loose. On this occasion, as he bailed out he slipped
out of the harness and it tangled around his foot. That meant that he dangled
head down in his chute as he came to earth. He was badly shook up on landing
and hospitalized with severe cuts and bruises and a good deal of shock. After
he recovered he was returned to duty. At that time we needed 65 missions to go
home. He had 62, Only three more to go. But he refused to ever fly again. This
was serious business with a war on. He was sent to London and a staff of
psychiatrists worked on him, but he wouldn't fly. Then they said if he flew as
an observer on the lead aircraft he could get 1½ missions credit for each
mission, He could fly two and get credit for three, and go home. He still
refused to fly. What was to be done? You can't really court marshal a man with
62 missions for cowardice in face of the enemy. But he still wouldn't fly. But
everyone else in the 344th damn well had to fly. Feelings were running high.
The talk around the group was, "If I have to fly, then he has to fly. No free
lunch. He had a bad bailout? Too frigging bad. We all have our troubles." My
pilot Paul Shorts said, "he was weak". When his name was brought up, the
universal response was disgust. Then one day he was gone. Fast forward 15 years
to a reunion of the 344th Bomb Group. Who should walk in but our old friend
Captain Johnson. No one spoke to him. Many just turned their backs on him. I
felt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany and losing
good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew with us, but
not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one of us.
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:54:05 -0500, "Tony Volk"
wrote:

p.s.- wasn't it a well established phenomenon in Vietnam that pilots
generally went "candy-assed" when they got close to the end of their tour?
so much so that they were rotated out of Pack VI for their last five or ten?

YUP !


Arthur Kramer

NOPE! You might want to read When Thunder Rolled for my description of
the last mission of my tour in which two of the seven flying from my
squadron were lost and I recovered back at Korat with ten pounds of
fuel left in the jet.

Statistically the most dangerous missions on a 100 mission tour were
the first ten and the last ten. The first because you were scared and
inexperienced, the last because there was a tendency to get
over-aggressive and feel a bit immortal. Many guys were trying to win
the war on their last couple before they completed and went home.

That's suprising to hear. I think most (unexperienced) people just
assume that close to the end of a tour a man will start to get jumpy.
I've read multiple times that heavy bomber guys in the ETO started to
get more nervous the closer they got to the end of the tours. Do you
think there was maybe a completely different mindset for a fighter
pilot (from any war) than there would have been for a heavy bomber
crew?

~Michael

Mike Marron wrote:
(ArtKramr) wrote:
"M. J. Powell" wrote:

Yes, I saw a paratroop sergeant break down in tears on television
once, after describing his experiences in NI. A paratroop sergeant!
The toughest of the tough.

It takes a tough man to cry and there are times when others admire the
person for showing some human emotion!

It's not what you do on television that counts. It is what you do
in combat that counts. No Air Medals for TV appearances.

The trouble with some is that they believe that the Hollywood film industry,
like any other of the other film industries portray life as the real thing.
This is a dangerous thing and you don't get a new game play when dead.

Also, the true test of one's character is judged by what he does when
no one is looking. No Air Medals for Autocollimator appearances.

Richard.

Subject: THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
From: (Michael)
Date: 2/5/04 9:52 AM Pacific

That's terrible that after flying all those missions it ended so
shamefully. He flew 62 missions, so I can't be critical of him, but
your group has every right to be. Did you ever talk with your group
mates about how they felt they would have reacted in the same
situation? I honestly have no idea whether I'd be able to get back in
a plane after something like that. I guess nobody does until they're
faced with the situation.

~Michael

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY

I am only telling you this story because he passed away two years ago. I
won't
reveal his identity. Let's call him Captain Johnson.
Captain Johnson's plane was badly hit over the target. He and his crew
bailed
out. But Johnson never liked to keep his chute harness buckled tight. It
gave
him cramps. So he wore it loose. On this occasion, as he bailed out he
slipped
out of the harness and it tangled around his foot. That meant that he
dangled
head down in his chute as he came to earth. He was badly shook up on
landing
and hospitalized with severe cuts and bruises and a good deal of shock.
After
he recovered he was returned to duty. At that time we needed 65 missions to
go
home. He had 62, Only three more to go. But he refused to ever fly again.
This
was serious business with a war on. He was sent to London and a staff of
psychiatrists worked on him, but he wouldn't fly. Then they said if he
flew as
an observer on the lead aircraft he could get 1½ missions credit for each
mission, He could fly two and get credit for three, and go home. He still
refused to fly. What was to be done? You can't really court marshal a man
with
62 missions for cowardice in face of the enemy. But he still wouldn't fly.
But
everyone else in the 344th damn well had to fly. Feelings were running
high.
The talk around the group was, "If I have to fly, then he has to fly. No
free
lunch. He had a bad bailout? Too frigging bad. We all have our troubles."
My
pilot Paul Shorts said, "he was weak". When his name was brought up, the
universal response was disgust. Then one day he was gone. Fast forward 15
years
to a reunion of the 344th Bomb Group. Who should walk in but our old friend
Captain Johnson. No one spoke to him. Many just turned their backs on him.
I
felt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany and
losing
good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew with us,
but
not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one of us.
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Thousands of men were wounded, crashed mauled and they returned to duty and did
the job they were trained to do. No free lunch. And no browny points for
almost.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 5 Feb 2004 10:01:30 -0800, (Michael) wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..

Statistically the most dangerous missions on a 100 mission tour were
the first ten and the last ten. The first because you were scared and
inexperienced, the last because there was a tendency to get
over-aggressive and feel a bit immortal. Many guys were trying to win
the war on their last couple before they completed and went home.

That's suprising to hear. I think most (unexperienced) people just
assume that close to the end of a tour a man will start to get jumpy.
I've read multiple times that heavy bomber guys in the ETO started to
get more nervous the closer they got to the end of the tours. Do you
think there was maybe a completely different mindset for a fighter
pilot (from any war) than there would have been for a heavy bomber
crew?

Lemme read that again slowly. You're asking a tactical aviator if
there "may be a completely different mindset for a fighter pilot...."

That's the very essence of the profession!!!!



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Sometimes Art, you show positive genius in misunderstanding people.

Mike


It's one of my strong points.


Arthur Kramer

No Art, it's one of your cheap points...you so much want to make
a sharp retort that, even though you perfectly knew what was
meant up thread, you grabbed the 'cheap' opportunity.

It does nothing for your reputation sir. Strange that you'd do
that.
--

-Gord.

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 07:41:40 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:26:19 -0500, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:


I don't know who you were talking about, since I don't read Kramer's stuff any
more. I was responding to comments made by Tony and, for whatever reason I think
too unimportant to seek out, it led me to believe that there was a reference to
comments made about our President's military aviation career.


The incident you refer to after four years of flying service including
UPT, operational qualification in the F-102 and achieving operational
alert status in the TANG was a request for four months detached duty
at Montgomery while working on a political campaign. The New York
Times has reported the corrected details of the events. Bush was
unable to meet commitments. He requested and received approval to make
up drill periods at a later time. This is standard ANG procedure.

He was current in a "combat aircraft in use in Viet Nam". The F-102
(including ANG crews) was deployed at Udorn, Danang and Tan Son Nhut
among other place.

If I was an F-102 pilot who was hot to trot, I think I might have volunteered to
transition into one of the birds actively used in the shooting war, like the
F-105, or whatever equipment they were then using for top covers.

"Top covers"?? What the hell are they? Do you mean MiGCAP? Not a
specialized mission for most of the war, usually flown by F-4s.
Primary job was ground attack, not traditional "fighter" against
"fighter" stuff. F-102s were deployed for airbase defense intercept
duty throughout the war.

Remember, Bush was ANG, not active force, hence he would have needed
to move out of state and establish residence to find a unit with one
of those aircraft types, which would probably not have gotten him
deployed anyway. Your whole postulate is a non-starter here.

So, follow the thread, contribute relevantly, get your facts straight,
and reduce the level of your personal agenda.

Would you care to comment on his submission of a "volunteer for o/s duty"
statement when he knew or should have known that he had insufficient flying time
in the bird to be favorably considered? All he had to do was to ask around, and
he'd have learned that they wanted people with more hours than he had. Excuse
me if I conclude that he was just going through the motions but I can't think
of any other reason for volunteering for something you know you're not going to
get.

Volunteering means a requirement exists and if your volunteer
statement is accepted, you are eligible. There might have been a
"desired" hours requirement, but it was a long way from "hard and
fast" if you were current in the system.

I flew my first F-105 combat to NVN, right out of training with less
than 120 hours after undergraduate pilot training. I flew my first F-4
combat, again to NVN with less than 30 hours in the F-4C (the combat
was in the F-4E).

I don't think lack of hours was any sort of protection from
deployment.
dont forget that we were putting tanker pilots into F-105 aircraft
also. And correct me if im wrong, but the biggest contribution that
the reserves/ANG had to make to the effort during the 50-70's were the
pilots. Even in Korea ANG pilots would just transition into the newer
aircraft.Aircraft may be different, but tactics pretty much reamin the
same. But saying that, i wouldnt want a Air/AIr guy all of a sudden
moving mud. But i can understand what Ed is saying. It wasnt until
1970's with the A-7 that the Reserves/ANG got first line equipment


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Mr. Kramer, Mr. Rasimus, Gentlemen (I presume no ladies here, if so, please
beg my pardon),

Have you ever thought that the poor guy felt that his luck run out?

Mr. Kramer can imagine that; he was fired upon and probably scared sh*tless
while putting the pipper over the darn target, but would recuperate once on
the ground. Let me tell you something; not all of US can do that. I used to
be an English translator for Serbian Surveyor Engineer and we were plotting
a pipeline for the ethnically mixed village just after the war in Bosnia. It
was deep snow and TRIPLE foward lines (Serbs, Muslims and Croats were
slaughtering each other with gusto) running through the village. It was not
a minefield , but mined AREA. I went first, knowing something about mines
since our guide lost his leg on "plastic canned pastette" mine with a nice
step-star on the top. I knew that they are almost useless in the deep snow
of Bosnia-just don't follow the steps! I had a sip of moonshine brandy so my
glasses (I wear a THICK glasses) wouldn't get foggy, got some Dutch courage
and rolled on, translating to my Canadian boss what my engineer had to say
(did I forget that Canadian guy was former soldier?). Trenches were in
chriss-cross, all armies used same communications but there were shallow and
mined as well with "Jumping-Jack-Flash" mines (push-pull activated
black-powder propelled mines that would explode at 1.5-2m, increasing the
range of lethality) that took the left-eye-vision from my friend (other eye
saved by the rock, but his face was cut with shrapnels). We finally roughly
marked the pipeline path (partly because we were drunk, partly because we
couldn't walk straight enough to measure the distance because of bloody
mines and tranches), but that was curled by using the polyethylene pipes
that run in rolls so they were placed AROUND the mines... and quite shallow.

After that, the Raven said: "Nevermore!".

Alas, I got employed for the simmilar job in Croatia, but for demining
company. Same, random mine placement, foward lines often mined by the both
sides one next to the other! I had the urge to urinate (so did my friend
deminer) so we went in the bushes. Then I noticed a cut red tape saying
"MINES! DO NOT CROSS!". I got frozen. I looked around and saw a well known
can-mines ("meat potato", anti-personell mine No.2, wrist-cutter) with
detonator No.8. I froze. It was summer, and DET-8 can be triggered by the
simple chemical reaction... if you pee on one, for example. If I just didn't
translate the blody AP Mine manual for the firm! I thought what funny
epitaph will be put on my grave-"died because he peed on one". My friend
yelled: "are you finished?" I muttered: "not yet, but we both will be soon.
GET US OUT OF THE BLOODY MINEFIELD!". The trainee with a dog from the South
Africa heard me yelling in Croatian (Serbo-Croatian, actually), but he
understood the universal word MINE. He took a dog which had a little
problems with detection-he could smell a mine, but not always react!

Somehow he found our traces in the red-dust (dalmatian Terra Rosa) and got
us out. I was devastated. I got back to the office and had a 1,5l of the
moonshine (it is legal here) and passed out. I quit next morning. I told the
guys the first expirience with mines, and they understood my attitude. After
all, I built entire administrative infrastructure, translated demining
manual from Bosnian into English (Bosnian is like Australian English,
Croatian like British, Serbian like American English, comprede?).

I got all back payment, a big farewell and still did the job for them...
from my house on my laptop.

They never called me a coward! I still have the nightmares of being marroned
with my trusty Lada with 200,000 miles on the clock in the middle of the
minefield... with no signal on the cell phone. I never went back for my
stuff to that place, although I designed kennels for the dogs. The entire
training site was moved 2 km closer to the road because dogs could not smell
dud (training) mines because of the scent of the REAL ones. I was jumping to
help whenever the car (darn Mitsubishi) got broken.

So, put yourself in the position upside-down on your chute, your head
dangling and your leg strained in an attempt to hold the chute still on you.
Do you feel lucky?

--

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

On Feb 4 2004 (Mike Marron) quoted John F. Kennedy
""War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector
enjoys the same reputation in prestige that the warrior does today."

In 1963 a VQ-2 Elint collection mission was planned in coordination with
other collectors, as one of VQ-2's missions at that time.

Two A3D-2Q (EA-3B) and one WV-2Q (EC-121M) flew to the Black Sea. One
A3D-2Q was to penetrate low-level under radar for 60 miles over Yalta,
then pop up
to hopefully cause Soviet Union radars to light up, and scram back over
the Black Sea. (A well practiced loft and toss maneuver from the A3D
Heavy Attack program). The other collectors would then document the
transmissions, ie., standard Elint stuff.

However the Navy CDR pilot of the probe aborted the mission just before
landfall, turned around and returned to the staging airfield. He was a
combat carrier pilot in WWII, and Heavy Attack pilot in VC and VAH
squadrons when they had the nuclear attack role 1948 - 1956, and had no
qualms about dropping a nuclear weapon if the flag went up in those
days.

The CDR, whom no other officers would talk to, was flown back to Rota,
VQ-2's homebase, then sent back to the United States for Courts Martial
(or some other action). I flew with him, as I had completed ten years
service and was leaving the Navy. He talked to me on the flight back to
Philadelphia, in a confessional type of way (we had a history together
that allowed that).

His position was that he was a patriot, and had risked his life many
times to defend the United States. His decision not to overfly was not,
in his view, an act of cowardice, as he was confident that he and his
crew would have successfully returned. His judgment was that such
provocative missions were wrong, and he could no longer conscientiously
or morally participate. He did not "go public" to push his views ie.,
did not have a political agenda; he gave up his career, retirement etc.,
as a matter of conscience. He was hoping that he could avoid other
punishment, but realized that he might not.

Chuck Huber (VC-8, VAH-1, FAITCLANT, VQ-2 - 1953 to 1963)







HEAVY ATTACK COMPOSITE (VC-5,6,7,8,9) WEBSITE
http://community.webtv.net/charles379/USNComposite

FAIRECONRON ONE AND TWO (VQ-1/2) CASUALTIES
http://www.anzwers.org/free/navyscpo...r_AirCrew.html