I give up, after many, many years!

On May 25, 1:24*am, Bob Noel
wrote:
In article ,

*More_Flaps wrote:
Do you really think Jo average knows some chemistry? Try asking a few
people what dihydrogenoxide

It's a poison.

yep, it killed one of our prime ministers ( Harold Holt in 1967 )
Terry
PPL Downunder

Boy, this NG sure has gone quiet. Guess you woke people up ...
finally.

On Tue, 20 May 2008 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT), Tina
wrote:

This is worth noting. Jay Somerset, who started this thread, said he
would no longer take part in this newsgroup.

Jay, thus far, is a man of his word. This 5/11 post was the last one
by that username. to the group. There is honor among posters!
Paraphrasing something often said, it's a superior poster who uses
superior judgment to avoid circumstances where his superior posting
skills are needed.

There may be a lesson here somewhere.






On May 11, 11:33 am, Jay Somerset wrote:
I give up -- not flying -- but subscribing to this NG. It is just too
riddled with crap and backbiting, to the point that it carries little
if any useful exchange of interest to active pilots. It isn't worth
the effort any more, even with multiple kill files.

So good riddance to 90+% of the posts, and the few idiots who have,
managed to spoil the NG over the past couple of years, and farewell to
those few remaining sensible contributors. I admire your patience and
tolerance. Mine have given out!
--
Jay (remove dashes for legal email address)

Boy, this NG sure has gone quiet. Guess you woke people up ...
finally.

Everyone but the trolls have been out flying!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in news:m8T_j.127893
$TT4.127065@attbi_s22:

Boy, this NG sure has gone quiet. Guess you woke people up ...
finally.

Everyone but the trolls have been out flying!

:-)

Yeh, right.



Bertie

On May 22, 9:12*pm, Le Chaud Lapin wrote:
Ph.D.?

Yes.

Chemistry or?

Chemical Engineering.

Michael

On May 22, 8:12*pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
This is the most cogent explanation yet of MX's power over some of the
regulars here. *It perfectly explains how he -- a known non-pilot -- is able
to throw many known pilots into apoplectic fits simply by posting a few
relatively innocuous comments.

You know, MX is simply the far end of the curve. I've seen lots of
students/potential students here asking questions. It was far from
rare that they got incomplete, internally inconsistent, and otherwise
problematic replies - almost invariably from certificated pilots.
Those that had the temerity to question the reply caught ****. I
guess they decided it wasn't worthwhile sticking around - they would
find out what they needed from their instructors and other pilots at
the airport. The sad thing is, these days that's likely not a bad
bet. The average quality of the discussion here has degenerated to
the point that it isn't any better than it is at the airport lounge -
and the airport lounge is a good deal more civil.

MX doesn't have that option, so he deals with usenet as it is. Here's
how I see it. He asks questions that are, for the most part, entirely
reasonable and on-topic. He gets a variety of replies, and the
majority are incomplete, internally inconsistent, and/or contradict
other sources. He points out the incompleteness, internal
inconsistency, and contradiction. He argues that the reply must be
wrong (often correctly). (Some of) the people who responded to him in
the first place take umbrage at this - how dare he, a non-pilot,
question their 'superior' knowledge. They become abusive, and he
becomes abusive in return - though I must say he generally gives just
a little less than he gets.

It's pretty sad - handled correctly, these could be discussions that
would be educational for many. It's always useful to examine what you
think you know from a different perspective, and MX provides an
interesting one. But what I've found is that as usenet became
progressively less academic, the number of people interested in having
their views challenged and examined, and of looking at what they think
they know from a different perspective has shrunk to where they are a
very small minority. Too bad - that's the only way you ever get to
really understand anything.

Since you're on a roll, I'd love to hear your theories about Bertie. *To me,
he is twice the mystery of MX, since he's obviously a real (or, at least,
former) pilot -- yet he has an apparently irresistable urge to troll the
group.

That's a tougher one. MX has a somewhat rational motivation - to
learn more about aviation without subjecting himself to the risk and
expense of actually flying an aircraft. That makes him unusual here.
Most of us have much fuzzier motivations. For example, what's my
motivation? In a sense, I'm a troll too. I tell people things
(usually about aviation, but in this thread about the aviation groups)
that they don't particularly want to hear. I used to think I was
actually teaching some people things they might need to know to get
some utility out of their flying and survive the experience by
dispelling some dangerous myths, but it gets harder and harder to
believe that with every year. So why do I bother? I used to get
intelligent and thoughtful people who would intelligently and
thoughtfully argue with my positions, thus helping me clarify,
correct, and solidify them, or occasionally discard some, but I don't
really get that anymore either. It's a lot of effort to argue that
way, and the people who were interested in making the effort are
mostly gone from here. So what do I get out of being here? I think
I'm mostly still here out of inertia - the way you will keep going
someplace you've been going for many years, even though it has changed
and the things that drew you there in the first place are all gone. I
think Bertie is sort of in the same boat, but there is an interesting
difference.

You see, despite all my certificates and ratings, I am fundamentally a
private pilot. I don't fly for a living, and though I do occasionally
make a few bucks doing aviation odd jobs (instructing, ferrying
airplanes, etc.) that's mostly because I think it's fun, and the
pocket money is just a bonus. I suspect that Bertie, like most
airline pilots, has a fundamental contempt for most private pilots.
Thus he's not terribly interested in making the intellectual effort to
argue with one to show him where his misconceptions lie and thus teach
him something. It's easier to just be rude. I've seen that before
too.

To give you a glimpse into airline pilot thinking, let me tell you how
I wound up getting my ATP. One day I caught up on totalling up the
columns in my logbook and realized that I was over 1600 hours, so I
started joking that I should start working on my ATP. Everyone got
the joke - except my friend the airline captain. He thought I was
serious, and even after I told him I was joking he said I should do it
anyway, because it would be a good credential. He coudn't really
explain what it would be a good credential for. Now this was a guy
who hadn't given dual in years (I think he burned out on it when he
was doing type ratings in DC-9's) and was never available no matter
who asked (not even for his best friend), and here he was offering to
train me. This was a guy who had hours well into five digits - and
lots of them in GA light twins. When a guy like that offers to teach
you something in your light twin, you're a moron if you turn him down,
so while I had no need for an ATP, I got one anyway. And I did learn
some things.

So why did he do it? Simple. It made me somewhat acceptable to his
other friends - the other airline pilots. In that crowd it's sort of
the minimum standard - it means they might actually listen to your
opinion and not reject it out of hand. That's what he really meant
about it being a good credential. To an airline pilot, pilots fall
into three categories. Either you are an ATP, or you just don't have
the hours to be one yet but you're working on it, or you're not really
serious about being a pilot - and should not be taken seriously as
one. That seems harsh - but I bounced this thought off some of those
airline pilot friends of my friend, and they told me I basically had
it right. It's not that hard to get, and the fact that you don't have
one is telling. That you might have no use for one and thus no
interest in getting one never seems to cross their minds. Some people
drive fast, drink, or smoke because of peer pressure - I got my ATP.
I tell you this to give you some insight into the way Bertie probably
thinks of those who populate this group, and to somewhat explain why
he feels his rudeness is acceptable.

Michael

On May 25, 9:10 am, terry wrote:

yep, it killed one of our prime ministers ( Harold Holt in 1967 )
Terry
PPL Downunder

He should have gone swimming in gin :-)

Michael wrote in
:

On May 22, 8:12*pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
This is the most cogent explanation yet of MX's power over some of
the regulars here. *It perfectly explains how he -- a known non-pilot
-- is
able
to throw many known pilots into apoplectic fits simply by posting a
few relatively innocuous comments.

You know, MX is simply the far end of the curve. I've seen lots of
students/potential students here asking questions. It was far from
rare that they got incomplete, internally inconsistent, and otherwise
problematic replies - almost invariably from certificated pilots.
Those that had the temerity to question the reply caught ****. I
guess they decided it wasn't worthwhile sticking around - they would
find out what they needed from their instructors and other pilots at
the airport. The sad thing is, these days that's likely not a bad
bet. The average quality of the discussion here has degenerated to
the point that it isn't any better than it is at the airport lounge -
and the airport lounge is a good deal more civil.

MX doesn't have that option, so he deals with usenet as it is. Here's
how I see it. He asks questions that are, for the most part, entirely
reasonable and on-topic. He gets a variety of replies, and the
majority are incomplete, internally inconsistent, and/or contradict
other sources. He points out the incompleteness, internal
inconsistency, and contradiction. He argues that the reply must be
wrong (often correctly). (Some of) the people who responded to him in
the first place take umbrage at this - how dare he, a non-pilot,
question their 'superior' knowledge. They become abusive, and he
becomes abusive in return - though I must say he generally gives just
a little less than he gets.

It's pretty sad - handled correctly, these could be discussions that
would be educational for many. It's always useful to examine what you
think you know from a different perspective, and MX provides an
interesting one. But what I've found is that as usenet became
progressively less academic, the number of people interested in having
their views challenged and examined, and of looking at what they think
they know from a different perspective has shrunk to where they are a
very small minority. Too bad - that's the only way you ever get to
really understand anything.

Since you're on a roll, I'd love to hear your theories about Bertie.
*To
me,
he is twice the mystery of MX, since he's obviously a real (or, at
least, former) pilot -- yet he has an apparently irresistable urge to
troll the group.

That's a tougher one. MX has a somewhat rational motivation - to
learn more about aviation without subjecting himself to the risk and
expense of actually flying an aircraft. That makes him unusual here.
Most of us have much fuzzier motivations. For example, what's my
motivation? In a sense, I'm a troll too. I tell people things
(usually about aviation, but in this thread about the aviation groups)
that they don't particularly want to hear. I used to think I was
actually teaching some people things they might need to know to get
some utility out of their flying and survive the experience by
dispelling some dangerous myths, but it gets harder and harder to
believe that with every year. So why do I bother? I used to get
intelligent and thoughtful people who would intelligently and
thoughtfully argue with my positions, thus helping me clarify,
correct, and solidify them, or occasionally discard some, but I don't
really get that anymore either. It's a lot of effort to argue that
way, and the people who were interested in making the effort are
mostly gone from here. So what do I get out of being here? I think
I'm mostly still here out of inertia - the way you will keep going
someplace you've been going for many years, even though it has changed
and the things that drew you there in the first place are all gone. I
think Bertie is sort of in the same boat, but there is an interesting
difference.

You see, despite all my certificates and ratings, I am fundamentally a
private pilot. I don't fly for a living, and though I do occasionally
make a few bucks doing aviation odd jobs (instructing, ferrying
airplanes, etc.) that's mostly because I think it's fun, and the
pocket money is just a bonus. I suspect that Bertie, like most
airline pilots, has a fundamental contempt for most private pilots.



Moi? Nope. I don;'t have contempt for private pilots at all. I am,
primarily, an amateur who hapens to make his living doing it too. i have
contempt for the ignorant, though. And by the ignorant, I mean that in
the truest sense of the word. Those who do not want to know...

I got my ATP.
I tell you this to give you some insight into the way Bertie probably
thinks of those who populate this group, and to somewhat explain why
he feels his rudeness is acceptable.


You might notice I;m not rude to more than a select few and they, quite
literally, ask for it.


Bertie

Michael wrote:

You know, MX is simply the far end of the curve. I've seen lots of
students/potential students here asking questions. It was far from
rare that they got incomplete, internally inconsistent, and otherwise
problematic replies - almost invariably from certificated pilots.
Those that had the temerity to question the reply caught ****.

I can not remember once where a true student or a potential student that
caught **** in this forum.

On May 27, 4:49*pm, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote:
Michael wrote:
You know, MX is simply the far end of the curve. *I've seen lots of
students/potential students here asking questions. *It was far from
rare that they got incomplete, internally inconsistent, and otherwise
problematic replies - almost invariably from certificated pilots.
Those that had the temerity to question the reply caught ****. *

I can not remember once where a true student or a potential student that
caught **** in this forum.

I can:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...5a49e900a0c791

I am a student pilot who took ground school last year, and while
reading Jeppensen's Private Pilot textbook, found some minor
untruths. I went to the web to do more study, and was skeptical of
the backwash-causes-lift theory.

While I do not have any licenses in aviation, or formal training in
aerodynamics, I do know calculus, Newtonian physics, and theory of
gases, ...and the explanation simply did not make sense to me, not
even as a shallow-but-still-theoretically-truthful answer. You can
read the thread to see the type of responses I got. Many of the rude
responses were one-liners from people whom I'd never met, presumably
pilots. Others came from pilots who vacillated between being
thoughtful and being rude, and the remaining came from those
interrupted the thoughtful responses because they felt that being rude
was most prudent for all.

In the end, we never got very far in a real discussion.

-Le Chaud Lapin-