Another Addition to the Rec.Aviation Rogue's Gallery!

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:cRmPb.110270$xy6.329120@attbi_s02...
Obviously, you thought wrong. Yet, you continue with your rude
spamming by posting yet another crossposted "update" notice today.
Since my last post, three more of your friends have suggested that a
monthly "update" notice interval might be better, yet you apparently
turn a blind eye to their constructive advice. And two more people
have since publicly killfiled you. No telling how many have quietly
killfiled you. You WILL eventually come to regret your spamming

Look, doofus "Lance"-boy, up till now I've accommodated your condescending
bull**** tone with uncommon good humor -- but you've crossed the line.

Jesu, Jay! Talk about crossing the line!

The Rogue's Gallery of airplane photos exists for the people who use this
group. I have created it in my "spare" time, and -- in case you haven't
noticed -- no one here much cares if you don't like it. Personally, I've
got a business to run, a family to raise, and flying to do, and I don't have
time to put together some sort of an "Outlook-style" calendar of monthly
updates, just so idiots like you don't have to read "excessive" 3-sentence
posts.

Look, Jay. Several people, myself included, have pointed out
that you're creating a red herring here. No one has suggested an
"Outlook-style" calendar -- just that you turn down the volume
a bit.

If you have time to post each time you update, you have time
to take the text you post, add it to a .txt file, then post
that .txt file once a month. It really just makes you look
pretty silly to suggest otherwise.

If you choose to do things differently, so be it, but I really
think you ought to sit down, drink a beer, and ask yourself
just what you're accomplishing by actively abusing those who
don't like what you're doing now as "idiots" etc etc. Because
whatever people's views on your frequent posts are (and I suspect
most people didn't care either way), I think you might be
starting to leave an impression. I know I'm getting one I
didn't have before.

And frankly, if people don't like what you're doing, they
have no obligation to killfile you; they have as much right
to post their objections as you have to post whatever you
please.

Now have at me, Big Guy.

Sydney

Peter R. wrote in message ...
I am continually amazed at people who spend more energy bitching about a
problem than solving it.

Peter,

With respect, while you're perfectly correct about the ease
of filtering or disregarding some posts, I think you misunderstand
what some people see as the issue. It's not a problem which can
really be solved by individual filters. Let me explain.

I was kinda hoping that someone better at explaining USENET
history than I would address this but, seems not so I'll take
a shot. This is for informational and educational purposes
and isn't intended to induce anyone to purchase a lottery ticket.

Suppose you found a newsgroup with an interesting topic
like rec.aviation.whatever. However, when you downloaded
the posts, it was chock full of posts from commercial
establishments. Now there might still be people talking
in the NG. They might even be having interesting discussions
about flying and airplanes that you'd like to join. But
if you didn't know what posters or topics to killfile, it
would just look like a group full of junk and you'd wander
on. Eventually, as the regulars moved on through normal
attrition, there'd be less and less topical discussion and
the ng would wither. (stay with me, I'm getting to the point)

For that reason among others, newsgroups prohibit commercial
postings. Since many commercial sites include useful or
interesting information, posts which direct the reader to
interesting information on a commercial site are widely
considered to be commercial postings even if they just say
"come see the cool updated info on my commercial site".

This is a bit of a gray area, obviously, and different people
will see it differently. If the web site is cited as an
answer to a direct question ie "where can I get information
about how to make my own aircraft antennae?" or "where
can I find pictures of all you hooligans?" I think very
few people object. For some, the dividing line is the
frequency of posts directing the reader to the site or
to what extent they are cross-posted. Occasional posts
don't typically draw comment. Frequent posts, esp. cross
posted, start looking more like spam.

But the concern is: if one business person is making
frequent posts directing people to updates of the non-
commercial stuff on his commercial site and that's
considered just ducky, will other business people
follow suit? It's especially a concern if they're all
cross posted; will we soon have multiple newsgroups
packed full of such postings, where it's hard to find
the 'signal'?

It's a valid concern. I've seen similar things happen
to other newsgroups I used to read.

And it's clearly not a concern which can be "solved"
by everyone who objects killfiling the offending threads
or poster. In fact, doing so might be seen as counter-
productive, since if such posts are seen to meet with
nothing but approval, other businesspeople could (with
justification) see it as an approved, appropriate thing
to do.

I cherish the rec.aviation groups, most of which have
a pretty high signal to noise despite the occasional
Invasion of the Loons or heated argument. I really
don't want to see them become a Forest of "Come see
the latest update to my rec.aviation flight tracker
info on my site!"

It seems to me that the issue has several solutions.
Most web hosting services seem to allow multiple
domain names. The "rogue's gallery" could be put
under a separate domain, rather than as a part of
Jay's site. Update notices could be posted at
a more reasonable interval. But compromise doesn't
seem to be on the agenda here (shades of my 4 yo:
cover ears NYA NYA NYA YOU'RE STUPID I'M NOT LISTENING
YOU'RE A BUM NYA NYA) and this whole thread seems
to be bringing out Beaucoup du Loons, so I'm outta
here.

Since Jay uses the same wording in every subject line of
these posts, why not simply create a rule in your newsreader
to ignore the threads.

Because, while it's easy, it wouldn't solve what some see
as the problem.

Hope this helps clarify the issues for some,
Sydney

Because, while it's easy, it wouldn't solve what some see
as the problem.

Hope this helps clarify the issues for some,

Yes, it does. Thanks, Sydney.

Although (as always happens when an uproar like this starts rolling along)
I've now got a back-log of photos and bios from eager contributors to upload
to the Gallery, I will try to keep their announcements to a minimum.

It's a real shame that this site -- created solely for users of this
forum -- is being painted with the same brush as commercial sites, but I
*do* see your point. It's a slippery slope from announcing the Rogue's
Gallery additions to allowing other sites with more tangential (I.E.:
commercial) connections -- and then all we'll have here is a newsgroups full
of commercial announcements. I, too, have seen this happen to other
newsgroups, and it destroys the group.

Please be aware, all, that I created the Rogue's Gallery with the best of
intentions.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
Peter R. wrote in message
...
I am continually amazed at people who spend more energy bitching about a
problem than solving it.

Peter,

With respect, while you're perfectly correct about the ease
of filtering or disregarding some posts, I think you misunderstand
what some people see as the issue. It's not a problem which can
really be solved by individual filters. Let me explain.

I was kinda hoping that someone better at explaining USENET
history than I would address this but, seems not so I'll take
a shot. This is for informational and educational purposes
and isn't intended to induce anyone to purchase a lottery ticket.

Suppose you found a newsgroup with an interesting topic
like rec.aviation.whatever. However, when you downloaded
the posts, it was chock full of posts from commercial
establishments. Now there might still be people talking
in the NG. They might even be having interesting discussions
about flying and airplanes that you'd like to join. But
if you didn't know what posters or topics to killfile, it
would just look like a group full of junk and you'd wander
on. Eventually, as the regulars moved on through normal
attrition, there'd be less and less topical discussion and
the ng would wither. (stay with me, I'm getting to the point)

For that reason among others, newsgroups prohibit commercial
postings. Since many commercial sites include useful or
interesting information, posts which direct the reader to
interesting information on a commercial site are widely
considered to be commercial postings even if they just say
"come see the cool updated info on my commercial site".

This is a bit of a gray area, obviously, and different people
will see it differently. If the web site is cited as an
answer to a direct question ie "where can I get information
about how to make my own aircraft antennae?" or "where
can I find pictures of all you hooligans?" I think very
few people object. For some, the dividing line is the
frequency of posts directing the reader to the site or
to what extent they are cross-posted. Occasional posts
don't typically draw comment. Frequent posts, esp. cross
posted, start looking more like spam.

But the concern is: if one business person is making
frequent posts directing people to updates of the non-
commercial stuff on his commercial site and that's
considered just ducky, will other business people
follow suit? It's especially a concern if they're all
cross posted; will we soon have multiple newsgroups
packed full of such postings, where it's hard to find
the 'signal'?

It's a valid concern. I've seen similar things happen
to other newsgroups I used to read.

And it's clearly not a concern which can be "solved"
by everyone who objects killfiling the offending threads
or poster. In fact, doing so might be seen as counter-
productive, since if such posts are seen to meet with
nothing but approval, other businesspeople could (with
justification) see it as an approved, appropriate thing
to do.

I cherish the rec.aviation groups, most of which have
a pretty high signal to noise despite the occasional
Invasion of the Loons or heated argument. I really
don't want to see them become a Forest of "Come see
the latest update to my rec.aviation flight tracker
info on my site!"

It seems to me that the issue has several solutions.
Most web hosting services seem to allow multiple
domain names. The "rogue's gallery" could be put
under a separate domain, rather than as a part of
Jay's site. Update notices could be posted at
a more reasonable interval. But compromise doesn't
seem to be on the agenda here (shades of my 4 yo:
cover ears NYA NYA NYA YOU'RE STUPID I'M NOT LISTENING
YOU'RE A BUM NYA NYA) and this whole thread seems
to be bringing out Beaucoup du Loons, so I'm outta
here.

Since Jay uses the same wording in every subject line of
these posts, why not simply create a rule in your newsreader
to ignore the threads.

Sydney

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:AKPPb.122190$8H.311989@attbi_s03...
Because, while it's easy, it wouldn't solve what some see
as the problem.

Hope this helps clarify the issues for some,

Yes, it does. Thanks, Sydney.

Although (as always happens when an uproar like this starts rolling along)
I've now got a back-log of photos and bios from eager contributors to
upload
to the Gallery, I will try to keep their announcements to a minimum.

It's a real shame that this site -- created solely for users of this
forum -- is being painted with the same brush as commercial sites, but I
*do* see your point. It's a slippery slope from announcing the Rogue's
Gallery additions to allowing other sites with more tangential (I.E.:
commercial) connections -- and then all we'll have here is a newsgroups
full
of commercial announcements. I, too, have seen this happen to other
newsgroups, and it destroys the group.

Please be aware, all, that I created the Rogue's Gallery with the best of
intentions.

That's obvious to even the most casual observation, Jay.

Thanks a bunch for all your unappreciated efforts.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:AKPPb.122190$8H.311989@attbi_s03...
Because, while it's easy, it wouldn't solve what some see
as the problem.

Hope this helps clarify the issues for some,

Yes, it does. Thanks, Sydney.

Although (as always happens when an uproar like this starts rolling along)
I've now got a back-log of photos and bios from eager contributors to
upload
to the Gallery, I will try to keep their announcements to a minimum.

It's a real shame that this site -- created solely for users of this
forum -- is being painted with the same brush as commercial sites, but I
*do* see your point. It's a slippery slope from announcing the Rogue's
Gallery additions to allowing other sites with more tangential (I.E.:
commercial) connections -- and then all we'll have here is a newsgroups
full
of commercial announcements. I, too, have seen this happen to other
newsgroups, and it destroys the group.

Please be aware, all, that I created the Rogue's Gallery with the best of
intentions.

Remember, too, that some people have the notion that time spent in a NG
produces some sort of squatters rights.

Jay Honeck wrote:
Sydney wrote:
Hope this helps clarify the issues for some,


Yes, it does. Thanks, Sydney.

My thanks, too, Sydney, for taking the time to explain so eloquently.


Although (as always happens when an uproar like this starts rolling along)
I've now got a back-log of photos and bios from eager contributors to upload
to the Gallery, I will try to keep their announcements to a minimum.

Thanks, Jay. I knew you were a reasonable fellow.

snip

Please be aware, all, that I created the Rogue's Gallery with the best of
intentions.

Indeed. I'm quite sure that's the case.

Now let's get back to aviation. :-)

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:AKPPb.122190$8H.311989@attbi_s03...
Because, while it's easy, it wouldn't solve what some see
as the problem.
..
Hope this helps clarify the issues for some,

Yes, it does. Thanks, Sydney.

You're welcome. I'm glad it helped.

It's always a problem when an issue like this comes up;
it can be hard for folks to recognize that they aren't
all operating from the same information or premises,
insults start flying, "ah the humanity" *g*

It's a real shame that this site -- created solely for users of this
forum -- is being painted with the same brush as commercial sites, but I
*do* see your point.

Yeah. I personally see it as on the "OK" side of the line,
but I think I understand where people are coming from who see it
differently and I do think it's worthwhile to respect their POV.

Because in the big picture what matters isn't really how you or
I see it, but how others who might be coming to the group with
a product to advertise are gonna see it. So it seems like if
it's a small thing to change why not accomodate. My $0.02 anyway.

Please be aware, all, that I created the Rogue's Gallery with the best of
intentions.

I never doubted that, which is why I hung in and kept talking

Best,
Sydney

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:54:56 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Because, while it's easy, it wouldn't solve what some see
as the problem.

Hope this helps clarify the issues for some,

Yes, it does. Thanks, Sydney.

As far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong with posting non
commercial items on a commercial site.

I have my own dot come, but as I have nothing to sell, no adds, and
only personal *stuff* or local EAA chapter *stuff*, it's a non
commercial dot com.

However to those commercial sites that host charitable, or non
commercial adventures without adds there should be no problem.


Although (as always happens when an uproar like this starts rolling along)
I've now got a back-log of photos and bios from eager contributors to upload
to the Gallery, I will try to keep their announcements to a minimum.

It's a real shame that this site -- created solely for users of this
forum -- is being painted with the same brush as commercial sites, but I

I have difficulty seeing how it could be painted that way by any one
who looks at it.

Many commercial sites host user sites and although the users are non
commercial, the site is under the commercial sites dot com.

We have several here. Some put adds on the users sites as part of the
TOS even though they are non commercial ventures.

*do* see your point. It's a slippery slope from announcing the Rogue's
Gallery additions to allowing other sites with more tangential (I.E.:

As long as there is a distinction between the commercial part of the
site and the gallery there should be no slippery slope.

commercial) connections -- and then all we'll have here is a newsgroups full
of commercial announcements. I, too, have seen this happen to other
newsgroups, and it destroys the group.

I see a large distinction between a commercial site hosting a non
commercial venture and those of a commercial nature.


Please be aware, all, that I created the Rogue's Gallery with the best of
intentions.

Jay, those of us who understand, need no explanation and those who
don't, never will no matter how much explanation you give.

Some probably would find fault even if it were a completely non
commercial site, just due to the repetition.

For the sensitive types, you could just make a weekly announcement
although for them monthly would probably be too much.

Although I understand the enthusiasm, "were it me" and it's not, I'd
just make a weekly announcement of updates. Besides, it's less
work:-)).

I take care of four sites (all non commercial) and keeping them
up-to-date takes quite a few hours. Plus on my own I get to practice
new programs and techniques. For me, the programming is more play.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Although I understand the enthusiasm, "were it me" and it's not, I'd
just make a weekly announcement of updates. Besides, it's less
work:-)).

Thanks for the support, Roger. I was truly taken aback by the ferocity of
the opposition to the Rogue's Gallery announcements.

My problem is that my days are incredibly disjointed, yet filled to
over-flowing. As a result, I'll spend an hour adding someone's pix to the
gallery -- in 5 minute increments, spread over half a day. For me to
actually remember doing this a week or a month later is difficult. Then for
me to then remember to post an update HERE a week or a month later is almost
impossible to imagine.

This was the reason for the frequent updates -- I simply didn't want to
forget someone's addition.

Now, true, I can do like Sydney (and others) have suggested, and paste the
person's name, etc., into a text file, for future updates. But that just
adds one more level of complexity I really don't need to an endeavor that
nets me nothing but ever-diminishing personal satisfaction.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:54:56 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Because, while it's easy, it wouldn't solve what some see
as the problem.

Hope this helps clarify the issues for some,

Yes, it does. Thanks, Sydney.

As far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong with posting non
commercial items on a commercial site.

I have my own dot come, but as I have nothing to sell, no adds, and
only personal *stuff* or local EAA chapter *stuff*, it's a non
commercial dot com.

However to those commercial sites that host charitable, or non
commercial adventures without adds there should be no problem.


Although (as always happens when an uproar like this starts rolling
along)
I've now got a back-log of photos and bios from eager contributors to
upload
to the Gallery, I will try to keep their announcements to a minimum.

It's a real shame that this site -- created solely for users of this
forum -- is being painted with the same brush as commercial sites, but I

I have difficulty seeing how it could be painted that way by any one
who looks at it.

Many commercial sites host user sites and although the users are non
commercial, the site is under the commercial sites dot com.

We have several here. Some put adds on the users sites as part of the
TOS even though they are non commercial ventures.

*do* see your point. It's a slippery slope from announcing the Rogue's
Gallery additions to allowing other sites with more tangential (I.E.:

As long as there is a distinction between the commercial part of the
site and the gallery there should be no slippery slope.

commercial) connections -- and then all we'll have here is a newsgroups
full
of commercial announcements. I, too, have seen this happen to other
newsgroups, and it destroys the group.

I see a large distinction between a commercial site hosting a non
commercial venture and those of a commercial nature.


Please be aware, all, that I created the Rogue's Gallery with the best of
intentions.

Jay, those of us who understand, need no explanation and those who
don't, never will no matter how much explanation you give.

Some probably would find fault even if it were a completely non
commercial site, just due to the repetition.

For the sensitive types, you could just make a weekly announcement
although for them monthly would probably be too much.


I take care of four sites (all non commercial) and keeping them
up-to-date takes quite a few hours. Plus on my own I get to practice
new programs and techniques. For me, the programming is more play.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

The part that bothers me the most is NO ONE complained about the multitude
of messages when Jay compiled the museum list with his signature on the
bottom of each. But publish member's pictures and bitter complaints just
poured in. The shear number of the mean spirited comments was overwhelming
and dis-heartening for this caring for flyers program.

I thought we had a band of brothers all supporting and sharing our love of
the skies. How else can we get into the skies except with our planes? I was
surprised by the original instigator that told me at Oshkosh that he ignored
any thread after about 4 messages as it was then it went off topic. Yet the
discussion has gone over 100 messages.

No one complains about the excessive XXXZoomerXXX messages which should have
been dropped by BOTH sides many years ago. They make good reading but do
little to promote aviation.

Is there a bunch of RAHer's than are jealous that some members do more than
just fly? That they have a way to support their passion?

I suppose that my signature is out of place as well as I ask for articles to
publish in the Safety Section of the Experimenter.

By the way, I'd be tickled pink that no one used the Emergency Aircraft
Repair facilities at Oshkosh. But just like the motel, it is there when you
need it.

--
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
or

Always looking for articles for the Experimenter soon to be Sport Pilot


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:cJuQb.137501$I06.1228700@attbi_s01...
Although I understand the enthusiasm, "were it me" and it's not, I'd
just make a weekly announcement of updates. Besides, it's less
work:-)).

Thanks for the support, Roger. I was truly taken aback by the ferocity of
the opposition to the Rogue's Gallery announcements.

My problem is that my days are incredibly disjointed, yet filled to
over-flowing. As a result, I'll spend an hour adding someone's pix to the
gallery -- in 5 minute increments, spread over half a day. For me to
actually remember doing this a week or a month later is difficult. Then
for
me to then remember to post an update HERE a week or a month later is
almost
impossible to imagine.

This was the reason for the frequent updates -- I simply didn't want to
forget someone's addition.

Now, true, I can do like Sydney (and others) have suggested, and paste the
person's name, etc., into a text file, for future updates. But that just
adds one more level of complexity I really don't need to an endeavor that
nets me nothing but ever-diminishing personal satisfaction.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:54:56 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Because, while it's easy, it wouldn't solve what some see
as the problem.

Hope this helps clarify the issues for some,

Yes, it does. Thanks, Sydney.

As far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong with posting non
commercial items on a commercial site.

I have my own dot come, but as I have nothing to sell, no adds, and
only personal *stuff* or local EAA chapter *stuff*, it's a non
commercial dot com.

However to those commercial sites that host charitable, or non
commercial adventures without adds there should be no problem.


Although (as always happens when an uproar like this starts rolling
along)
I've now got a back-log of photos and bios from eager contributors to
upload
to the Gallery, I will try to keep their announcements to a minimum.

It's a real shame that this site -- created solely for users of this
forum -- is being painted with the same brush as commercial sites, but
I

I have difficulty seeing how it could be painted that way by any one
who looks at it.

Many commercial sites host user sites and although the users are non
commercial, the site is under the commercial sites dot com.

We have several here. Some put adds on the users sites as part of the
TOS even though they are non commercial ventures.

*do* see your point. It's a slippery slope from announcing the
Rogue's
Gallery additions to allowing other sites with more tangential (I.E.:

As long as there is a distinction between the commercial part of the
site and the gallery there should be no slippery slope.

commercial) connections -- and then all we'll have here is a newsgroups
full
of commercial announcements. I, too, have seen this happen to other
newsgroups, and it destroys the group.

I see a large distinction between a commercial site hosting a non
commercial venture and those of a commercial nature.


Please be aware, all, that I created the Rogue's Gallery with the best
of
intentions.

Jay, those of us who understand, need no explanation and those who
don't, never will no matter how much explanation you give.

Some probably would find fault even if it were a completely non
commercial site, just due to the repetition.

For the sensitive types, you could just make a weekly announcement
although for them monthly would probably be too much.


I take care of four sites (all non commercial) and keeping them
up-to-date takes quite a few hours. Plus on my own I get to practice
new programs and techniques. For me, the programming is more play.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com