The rudder waggle signal does not work

On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

How about "Glider on tow, your spoilers are open!"

Hard to screw that up! Even if there were 4 gliders on tow, all of
them checking their spoilers would be a good thing, right?

On Jul 25, 10:47*am, Free Flight 107 wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "









wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

How about "Glider on tow, your spoilers are open!"

Hard to screw that up! Even if there were 4 gliders on tow, all of
them checking their spoilers would be a good thing, right?

I've liked "Glider on tow, check spoilers". Briefer, instructs the
pilot (who is already clearly behind their aircraft) what to do. I
still wonder if a pilot might be confused by this--but if they are
then maybe they are so far behind they are a lost cause anyhow? It
would be nice to have a standard call. I hope tow pilots still try to
climb to a safe height/location if possible before making a call. We
are still going to have confused pilots releasing when they should not
based on radio confusion (e.g. noisy cockpits, stress, poor/
unpracticed phraseology, etc.). So while I think properly installed
and used radios are very important here I would hate to see anyone
think radios alone are a simple panacea here--and I expect many of the
folks who are advocating improved/more radio use agree with that
anyhow.

Darryl

On Jul 25, 4:22*am, "
wrote:
On Jul 24, 8:45*pm, Kemp wrote:





One data point on the "dive brake open" detection with this particular
accident.

I've started a flight three times where the divebrakes were unlocked
and then sucked out as speed picked up.

In the first, 20+ years ago, it was a Blanik where we were past the
point that we should have lifted off. *I don't know what made me
looked at the wings, but I did and saw them open. *Closed them and we
ballooned up, almost causing a second incident but caught it quick
enough and continued on with an otherwise normal tow.

In the second, 12+ years ago, it was in my Standard Libelle where the
divebrakes mattered little to the Pawnee towplane. *A radio call from
the towplane at about 700 ft. and I closed them.

In the third, about 8 years ago at Minden, I was launching in the
ASH-26E and halfway down the runway well past where I should have
lifted off, I looked out to see the brakes open. *I killed the power,
and slowed down to taxi speed, taxied around back to the takeoff point
for another launch.

After these teaching moments, I now always glance at one wing on the
takeoff roll once I get good aileron control and again once I'm past
the turnaround altitude (400-500 ft.). *It's now part of my takeoff /
climbout procedure, so perhaps each pilot can add this to their
procedures, whether or not there are spoiler alarms on the ship.

Kemp

Kemp....

Most learn this lesson after only one time! * In fact most learn this
lesson from someone else's mistake...

If you simply do a proper pre flight inspection, a proper take off
check list, and keep a hand near/on the spoiler handle.....it will
never happen....never....100% sure.....(ok...glance at the wing
too.....couldn't hurt)

Then you don't even have to remember the signal, or have a radio....

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Right, IF is the key here. If we always do everything right than there
is no need for anything else, right? No need for automatic control
hook, parachutes, seat belts in cars etc, etc. But we human do NOT
always do everything right, and the first thing that goes away when
distracted or in emergency is the checklist!
I find it strange that some people still believe that they are immune
to mistakes since they always use practice, checklists etc, just
because nothing happened to them yet. We need to make the best effort
so mistakes wouldnt kill us so easily.
Kemp suggestion to glance at the wing is a good one, especially if the
tow is not going as expected!

Ramy

On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy

On Jul 25, 3:12*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "









wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy

Can't speak for Cookie but personally, I don't want a glider pilot on
the end of my tow rope who can't understand the difference between two
very different visual signals.

"150flivver" wrote in message
...
On Jul 25, 3:12 pm, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:58 am, "









wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16 pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. Person to person communication. Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. Transponders. Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. Get over it. Buy the equipment. Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? (in both aircraft?)

Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? (many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy

Can't speak for Cookie but personally, I don't want a glider pilot on
the end of my tow rope who can't understand the difference between two
very different visual signals.

I agree with you, flivver and suggest to those who want 100% safety maybe
they should stay in bed.

On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "





wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

First of all, I don't teach tow pilots....I teach people to become
glider pilots...

But...every tow pilot I have ever spoken to says that they will avoid
giving the rudder wag as long as they are climbing (somewhat)...at
least to a reasonable altitude......

I also know that most tow pilots will avoid giving the wing rock at
low altitude unless absolutely necessary.....

I know one incident where a tow pilot got low oil pressure right after
take off, but continued to about 1000' above the ground before waving
off the glider......glider and tow plane landed safely...but engine
was a write off......

Better a blown engine than bad accident....

This is all really common sense stuff....

But this is not the point..........the point is that "radio" is no
better than "rudder waggle" to convey a simple message...which is
"close the spoilers"........In fact the rudder waggle IS the
standard. In fact the radio adds a whole new layer of complexity and
failure points, compared the the signals we all were taught and should
know well....

The responsibility to know and understand signals is that of the PIC
in the glider........

It makes people "feel good" to go throught the "if only"
scenarios........"if only he had a two way radio they would be alive
today"......"If only the FAA would do something about this" If only
the SSA would do something. blah blah blah

See this puts the blame beyond the pilot.......

Sorry....if you want to play "if only"......I say...If only he did a
pre flight, and a pre take off check list...if only he kept his hand
near or on the spoiler handle....if only he recognised the poor climb
rate......if onloy he knew and understood an emergency plan...If ony
he knew what a simple standard signal meant??

yes we a human....yes we all make mistakes......this is why in aiation
we rely on written checklists......this is why we developed emercency
plans of action...this is why we have emergency signals......

If you don't lock the spoilers on preflights.....and don't lock them
on pre take off checks, and dont realize they are open during
tow.....then you get the "reminder"...the rudder waggle.....

If you make more mistakes than that...well you are in the wrong
sport..

Cookie

On 7/25/2011 2:06 PM, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:22 am, "
wrote:
On Jul 24, 8:45 pm, wrote:

One data point on the "dive brake open" detection with this particular
accident.

I've started a flight three times where the divebrakes were unlocked
and then sucked out as speed picked up.

In the first, 20+ years ago, it was a Blanik where we were past the
point that we should have lifted off. I don't know what made me
looked at the wings, but I did and saw them open. Closed them and we
ballooned up, almost causing a second incident but caught it quick
enough and continued on with an otherwise normal tow.

In the second, 12+ years ago, it was in my Standard Libelle where the
divebrakes mattered little to the Pawnee towplane. A radio call from
the towplane at about 700 ft. and I closed them.

In the third, about 8 years ago at Minden, I was launching in the
ASH-26E and halfway down the runway well past where I should have
lifted off, I looked out to see the brakes open. I killed the power,
and slowed down to taxi speed, taxied around back to the takeoff point
for another launch.

After these teaching moments, I now always glance at one wing on the
takeoff roll once I get good aileron control and again once I'm past
the turnaround altitude (400-500 ft.). It's now part of my takeoff /
climbout procedure, so perhaps each pilot can add this to their
procedures, whether or not there are spoiler alarms on the ship.

Kemp


Kemp....

Most learn this lesson after only one time! In fact most learn this
lesson from someone else's mistake...

If you simply do a proper pre flight inspection, a proper take off
check list, and keep a hand near/on the spoiler handle.....it will
never happen....never....100% sure.....(ok...glance at the wing
too.....couldn't hurt)

Then you don't even have to remember the signal, or have a radio....

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Right, IF is the key here. If we always do everything right than there
is no need for anything else, right? No need for automatic control
hook, parachutes, seat belts in cars etc, etc. But we human do NOT
always do everything right, and the first thing that goes away when
distracted or in emergency is the checklist!
I find it strange that some people still believe that they are immune
to mistakes since they always use practice, checklists etc, just
because nothing happened to them yet. We need to make the best effort
so mistakes wouldnt kill us so easily.
Kemp suggestion to glance at the wing is a good one, especially if the
tow is not going as expected!

Ramy

Here's a seriously-intended question...how lengthy should we allow a potential
accident chain to become before we DO start to point the finger at a pilot's
culpability instead of deciding to layer yet another procedural 'thing' as a
band-aid against human frailty?

Kudos to Kemp for publicly admitting his 3 inadvertent spoiler openings, and
*maybe* some slack his direction for the same gaffe being in 3 different ship
types (not quite so 'gaffe-y' as repeating it in the same ship, one might
argue), but the devil is in the details...were any/all of the launches
'rushed' in any way? Complacency? Mechanical failure? ???

What is it that is fundamentally difficult about putting a glider together
completely, double-checking for that completeness, then running a simple (e.g.
CB-SIFT-CBE) checklist immediately prior to hooking up? Who's most likely to
die if you get it horribly wrong?

I began a takeoff roll with a tail dolly on, once, rushing to obtain a
non-club-member spot at the front of a soon-to-be-long club tow line as soon
as the first club pilot thought he could remain aloft; I wanted to be the
pilot conveying the 'launch' signal! About the time I waggled the
ruddervators, 'that little voice' in my head said it didn't remember me
removing the dolly (I'd snagged an inexperienced wing runner in my unseemly
haste); an instant after beginning to roll, I pulled the release because I was
99% certain I had NOT removed the dolly...and I had not. I got my precious tow
slot...and haven't repeated 'any haste mistake' in more than 30 years.

I did make 'a got-interrupted mistake' - once - at a later date rigging a
different ship. Haven't repeated it, either.

I don't claim perfection, but I damned sure HAVE worked mentally intently to
sear the life-threateningly-crucial mistakes into my 'permanent' awareness.
And while I've never turned down any offers to perform a critical assembly
check, and appreciate the thought underlying them when offered, I've also
never sought them out or relied on them in any way, simply because I've
already done my own. It really isn't difficult.

Regards,
Bob - mindset matters! - W.

P.S. I don't pretend to have 'the answer' to my posed question, but I think a
decent argument can be made that humans are geniuses when it comes to being
idiots. Heckuva paradox, there. Somewhere along the line, Joe Pilot has to
personally reconcile this paradox. Personally, I prefer to depend first on
myself, rather than first on someone else's well-intended procedure to save my
bacon. (Hidden assumption: This presumes I as J. Pilot have prepared myself
beforehand with the basic relevant safety knowledge and personal skills to do
whatever it is I'm proposing to do...)

On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "





wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ramy.....

Let me ask you this...

Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
would you do???

Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means???
Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means??

Just asking..


Cookie

On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "
wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy wrote:





On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "

wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ramy.....

Let me ask you this...

Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
would you do???

Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means???
Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means??

Just asking..

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
before deciding to release.

Ramy