cost of ownership

Dude wrote:
Elwood,

I was thinking about updating to the new aviation consumer book. Why do you
recommend the older ones? Has there been a change? The one I have from the
eighties seems fairly written.

Only because the older ones can be found used for $10 or so. The new
one is $50 plus shipping. I have read some of the later (updated)
reports, and it didn't seem to me that there was $40 worth of new
information there.

Then again, if you are well heeled it is very interesting to compare the
reports of, say, an older Comanche to a newer Cirrus SR20. But then if
you are that well heeled, you can afford the $40!

In article m, Richard Kaplan wrote:
Do you fly more than 100 hours per year in your airplane? If so, you are an
exception. How many pilots here fly a C172-class airplane over 100 hours
per year?

Me. I usually exceed 100 hours alone, plus other people fly it sometimes.

Tina Marie

"Tina Marie" wrote in message
...

Me. I usually exceed 100 hours alone, plus other people fly it sometimes.

What do you fly? Where from? Where to?

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[snip]

Do you fly more than 100 hours per year in your airplane? If so, you
are an
exception. How many pilots here fly a C172-class airplane over 100
hours
per year?


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

I'm in a flying club with a 172 and a 182. I bought a 1/3 share of a
Cherokee 180 last October.
Logbook shows: 2002: 72.9, 2003: 83, 2004: 47.6 so far

Sadly, it looks like most flights average out to 1.1 hobbs per flight.
I've been working on ifr training over the past year, so that lowers the
average.

I don't do a lot of traveling, but it's not really due to a slower
airplane. It's just life and weather that seem to do me in. I'm hoping the
ifr rating will help with the weather part. I'd have to work pretty hard to
get over 100 hours per year. (but what fun...)

Richard Kaplan wrote:
What do you fly? Where from? Where to?

Tripacer. I fly to and from the local $100 hamburger place. I fly to
and from the local soaring club. I do one long (2000 mile+) trip a year,
sometimes 2 of those. Other then that, I putter around a lot.

It's not up to date, but you can get an idea from:
http://www.tripacerdriver.com/log.html

These are up to date:
http://www.tripacerdriver.com/RouteG...s/RouteMap.jpg
http://www.tripacerdriver.com/RouteG...anceByYear.jpg
http://www.tripacerdriver.com/RouteG...anceByType.jpg

Tina Marie
--
http://www.tripacerdriver.com "...One of the main causes
of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way
to indicate successful termination of their C programs." (Robert Firth)

I think I'm going to stick with a fixed gear to start.
I've been eyeing the Musketeer, but I'm a little worried about the IO-346.
All the 0-360 ones I've seen (or can afford) are only 150HP, but the IO-346
is 165HP.
Anyway, point well taken. I like Beech's as well.
Thanks


Adam

"Elwood Dowd" wrote in message
...
Glad to hear! Keep us in the loop.

More advice: don't forget about the non-CessnaPiper planes out there,
or even some of the lesser known models of brand C and P. There are
some fantastic deals. Cessna Cardinal RGs and Mooney M20C and -E, for
example, all go 145 knots on 9-10gph. The Cardinal comes in a
welded-leg version as well.

Mooneys are great planes if you can fit into them. In my experience, if
you are comfortable in a Cherokee you can squeeze in.

I feel claustrophobic with small cabins and only one door, so we bought
a Beechcraft Sierra, same engine as the Mooney and Cardinal RG but only
135kt or so---but a cabin nearly as big as our station wagon. The fixed
gear version is a Musketeer or Sundowner. Not all have two doors, but
some even have a kid-size bench seat in the baggage area.

We decided that cabin size and ease of egress were more important than
speed, so we ended up with a Beech instead of a Mooney. It was a toss
up between the Sierra and the Cardinal RG---the Sierra was about 4/5 the
cost.

Best thing to do is to get Ron Wanttaja's book, one of the Bill Clarke
anthologies, or an older edition of Aviation Consumer's guide to used
planes, and look through the stats. Figure out what's important, and go
from there. When you have it narrowed down, join the type club mailing
lists. Both the Cardinal list and the Musketeer list have been
fantastic resources.



The Weiss Family wrote:
Thanks for the info Elwood.
I get excited thinking about ownership, but like buying a car, it's best
not
to get emotional.
Your post helped me get a decent perspective on the ups and downs of
ownership.

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
Good job, Dude. My leaseback worked ok, too, when I had it. It was an
excellent
way for me to break into airplane ownership.

Did it make a profit outright or did it simply reduce the expense of
ownership? What kind of plane was it?

How did leaseback affect your maintenance costs?

Did you factor in the depreciation on your engine?

Why did you stop the leaseback?


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan wrote:
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...

Good job, Dude. My leaseback worked ok, too, when I had it. It was an

excellent

way for me to break into airplane ownership.

Did it make a profit outright or did it simply reduce the expense of
ownership? What kind of plane was it?

It was very thin one way or the other, close to break even. I intentionally
operated it that way. I saw it as as opportunity to get experience in ownership,
be in control of and aware of maintenance, and have a plane for me to fly with
minimal expense. Of course, as you know, the expense of ownership is so wildly
variable that even though my intent was to come close to breaking even, the fact
that I did so was mostly a matter of luck. It was a 1975 PA28-180 Archer.

The lease arrangement was such that I was responsible for providing an airworthy
aircraft, the club paid for insurance and provided scheduling, collection, and
screening of users, used it for instrument instruction.

The maintenance was done mostly by an FBO on the field for convenience, I didn't
shop for price. This is the primary airport in a class C, and I think the
maintenance rates were higher than they might have been at an outlying field. It
was maintained with the intent of maximizing dispatching availability, which
sometimes meant paying overtime rates.

In the beginning I had a partner, but I bought him out when he didn't want to do
it any more due to a medical issue.


How did leaseback affect your maintenance costs?

I can't give you a quantitative answer, but there were relatively few instances
where maintenance expense occurred because of obvious renter malfeasance. Since
the airplane was flying ~350 hours per year, the maintenance expense was spread
over way more hours than I could have achieved any other way.


Did you factor in the depreciation on your engine?

Yes. I overhauled the engine twice during my tenure of ownership. One field
overhaul at a boutique engine shop was a disaster due to the difficulty of
warranty service because of distance. The other was a field overhaul at a nearby
shop with new Lyc cylinders and was a more satisfactory experience. The current
owner is going through an overhaul right now, went for a reman.


Why did you stop the leaseback?

I was not flying due to some temporary medical difficulties. I had an offer from
another club member that looked attractive. Out of loyalty to the club, I wanted
the club to be able to continue to use the plane. The plane has changed hands
again since then, and is still on leaseback to the same club. I still fly it
once in a while.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

In article ,
Dave Butler wrote:

The lease arrangement was such that I was responsible for providing an
airworthy
aircraft, the club paid for insurance and provided scheduling, collection, and
screening of users, used it for instrument instruction.

The club paying for insurance is huge. Commercial insurance can easily
cost 3-4x the personal/business policy. That's also what makes it
impractical to let your airplane be used a "little" for instruction.
The insurance is so high you need a year's worth of solid revenues to
offset it.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...

Yes. I overhauled the engine twice during my tenure of ownership. One
field

Well that might be a good argument in favor of leaseback. Most
single-pilot airplanes probably reach TBO by calendar hours way before they
reach TBO by tach hours. Getting revenue to support regular engine
overhauls is a big plus -- I would much rather fly IFR behind an engine new
by calendar hours than an engine low on tach hours but high on calendar
hours.



--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com