Airspeed of military planes

ok Jim... lets do a no flap approach...

IIRC.. I believe the airspeed and proper AoA will now be around 210..
correct..

BT
B-1 GIB

"Jim Baker" wrote in message
...
Sorry, I thought it was clear I was speaking about AoA to fly final and
land
the Bone, as you said you use in the Harrier.


"Frijoles" wrote in message
ink.net...
Good job JB, you compute an airspeed for the Bone. And so your point
is...*what* about landing the Harrier?


"Jim Baker" wrote in message
news
You're right Frijoles, in the Bone the correct answer for "What
airspeed
do
you fly on final" is "I don't know/care. I'm flying 7 AoA as required
by
the Dash One". There is however, a chart of airspeed and gross
weights
that
every pilot has and, IAW the Landing Checklist, every final must have
an
airspeed computed.

JB

"Frijoles" wrote in message
ink.net...
Nozzles aft, Harrier approach speed will be in the 155kt +/-range.
At
20
nozzles and auto flaps(normal for IFR final), you're somewhat slower
but
to
be honest I don't recall the airspeed because my primary reference
was
always AoA. Depending on the type of landing you intend to make,
once
you're in the visual environment, you transition to a higher nozzle
angle
(60-75 depending...), and in some instances, STOL flaps where the
flaps
program automatically as a function of nozzle angle. "On speed" for
a
fixed-nozzle slow landing is around 110kts. The *very* slow rolling
landings you occasionaly see are called rolling vertical landings --
60
kts
ground speed is the target but the transition to that speed will
usually
be
over the runway, not on approach final.

"Darkwing Duck" wrote in message
...

"Tetsuji Rai" wrote in message
s.com...
Airspeed limitation below 10000ft is usually 250kts unless you
have
been
authorized by the Administrator. However I guess it's a bit
slow
for
military fighters. So I am curious how fast military fighters
fly
in
the
real world. I guess it's very dangerous military aircraft fly
much
fast
among civilian planes.



So how fast is short final in a F-14 or whatever? Always wanted to
know.

Bill, as you no doubt remember, no flap approaches and landings were done at
6 AoA versus 7 AoA with flaps/slats. But the airspeeds for a no flapper
were typically about 40 knots faster than with flaps/slats. You'd try to
get down to about 20K lbs of fuel for a no flap landing which gave an
approach/landing speed of 184 KIAS for a 210K lb. airplane.

Cheers,

Jim

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:fs0Rb.61523$zs4.18646@fed1read01...
ok Jim... lets do a no flap approach...

IIRC.. I believe the airspeed and proper AoA will now be around 210..
correct..

BT
B-1 GIB

"Jim Baker" wrote in message
...
Sorry, I thought it was clear I was speaking about AoA to fly final and
land
the Bone, as you said you use in the Harrier.


"Frijoles" wrote in message
ink.net...
Good job JB, you compute an airspeed for the Bone. And so your point
is...*what* about landing the Harrier?


"Jim Baker" wrote in message
news You're right Frijoles, in the Bone the correct answer for "What
airspeed
do
you fly on final" is "I don't know/care. I'm flying 7 AoA as
required
by
the Dash One". There is however, a chart of airspeed and gross
weights
that
every pilot has and, IAW the Landing Checklist, every final must
have
an
airspeed computed.

JB

"Frijoles" wrote in message
ink.net...
Nozzles aft, Harrier approach speed will be in the 155kt +/-range.
At
20
nozzles and auto flaps(normal for IFR final), you're somewhat
slower
but
to
be honest I don't recall the airspeed because my primary reference
was
always AoA. Depending on the type of landing you intend to make,
once
you're in the visual environment, you transition to a higher
nozzle
angle
(60-75 depending...), and in some instances, STOL flaps where the
flaps
program automatically as a function of nozzle angle. "On speed"
for
a
fixed-nozzle slow landing is around 110kts. The *very* slow
rolling
landings you occasionaly see are called rolling vertical
landings --
60
kts
ground speed is the target but the transition to that speed will
usually
be
over the runway, not on approach final.

"Darkwing Duck" wrote in message
...

"Tetsuji Rai" wrote in message
s.com...
Airspeed limitation below 10000ft is usually 250kts unless you
have
been
authorized by the Administrator. However I guess it's a bit
slow
for
military fighters. So I am curious how fast military
fighters
fly
in
the
real world. I guess it's very dangerous military aircraft
fly
much
fast
among civilian planes.



So how fast is short final in a F-14 or whatever? Always wanted
to
know.

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:53:22 GMT, "Frijoles"
wrote:

I've known generally what (the string) was for a long time but never
bothered to ask when it was referenced (primarily)? High alpha stuff?
Landing pattern? Single engine would be an obvious case...anything else?
More for "departure prevention," TF 30 "management" or both?

We had a "yaw string" on F-4s in USAF. I don't recall if there was on
for the F-105. The main purpose in operational aircraft was during
weapons deliver and the most important weapons delivery with a yaw
concern was strafe or rockets.

Any yaw at the moment of release means the sight is pointing left or
right of the flight path and the weapons will go in the direction the
aircraft has imparted, not the place that the sight tells you. Yaw
left, shoot right.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Thanks -- had forgotten about sideslip and FF ordnance realignment with the
relative wind...

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:53:22 GMT, "Frijoles"
wrote:

I've known generally what (the string) was for a long time but never
bothered to ask when it was referenced (primarily)? High alpha stuff?
Landing pattern? Single engine would be an obvious case...anything else?
More for "departure prevention," TF 30 "management" or both?

We had a "yaw string" on F-4s in USAF. I don't recall if there was on
for the F-105. The main purpose in operational aircraft was during
weapons deliver and the most important weapons delivery with a yaw
concern was strafe or rockets.

Any yaw at the moment of release means the sight is pointing left or
right of the flight path and the weapons will go in the direction the
aircraft has imparted, not the place that the sight tells you. Yaw
left, shoot right.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Tetsuji Rai" wrote in message
ws.com...
Airspeed limitation below 10000ft is usually 250kts unless you have been
authorized by the Administrator. However I guess it's a bit slow for
military fighters. So I am curious how fast military fighters fly in the
real world. I guess it's very dangerous military aircraft fly much fast
among civilian planes.



On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:41:45 -0800, "BTIZ"
wrote in Message-Id: 9ImQb.59286$zs4.54931@fed1read01:

"it depends"..

When I was flying the B-1, we would accelerate to 360 knots on climb out..
Coming back down into traffic pattern it was 300knts below 10K
Our flap / gear speed is 240knt (the buzzer comes on below 240knts if the
flaps are not out)

But for low level in IR training routes, we planned 540knt, 500-1500ft AGL
Those IR routes are not in MOA or restricted airspace, but can be, and they
are on the VFR charts for a reason.

BT




Oh, you mean like the military pilot who, on November 16, 2000, lead
his flight in excess of 450 knots through busy Miami Class B and Tampa
C airspace without a clearance ending in a midair collision with a
Cessna 172 under positive air traffic control and its ATP rated flight
instructor pilot scattered over four acres of golf course?* The
Associated Press reported that the military found verbal reprimand to
be appropriate reprimand for the irresponsible conduct of the lead
airman whose unbelievable hubris left the Cessna pilot's daughter an
orphan.


*
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?...A028A &akey=1

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 06:51:55 GMT, Nathan Young
wrote in Message-Id:
:

I assume most aircraft have a military version of TCAD/TCAS? Does
this give suficient heads up to keep separation from the slow moving
GA traffic?

Think again. Military pilots flying in excess of 250 knots below
10,000' not only lack TCAD/TCAS, but are NOT REQUIRED to employ
they're on-board radar (which you and I purchased) to scan for GA
traffic! When a GA flight is disintegrated by a meteoric F-16, the
airman (ir)responsible for the "mishap" is given a verbal reprimand!
Unfortunately, it's impossible for a GA pilot to avoid a high-speed
F-16 on a collision course; by the time the traffic is perceptible in
the windscreen, there is inadequate time to maneuver clear. The FAA
has abrogated their responsibility to provide a safe NAS, in favor of
renegade military aviation.


--
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while
bad people will find a way around the laws. -- Plato

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:02:57 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in Message-Id:
. net:


"N. Funk" wrote in message
...

Yes, but the problems occur when us insects splatter on the windshield
of those fast moving "space-ships". Even though it rarely occurs, it is
usually catastrophic for the insects. Remember the incident several
years ago in around Manatee County, Florida when a Cessna and a fighter
collided.


It's usually catastrophic for the "space-ships" as well.


So far, it's been 50/50. The first high-speed low-level military
flight, that collided with a glider, was able to make it safely to its
original destination. Miraculously, the glider safely landed missing
several feet of wing and aileron! If I recall correctly, the NTSB
found the glider pilot to be at fault, despite the see-and-avoid
regulations!

The F-16 involved in the Florida MAC became uncontrollable; its
military pilot safely ejected and walked away. It was reported, that
the Commanding Officer (Gen. Rosa) of the airman responsible for the
military flight (Parker) stated, that the flight leader (Parker) would
receive a verbal reprimand for splattering the ATP rated Cessna pilot
over four acres of golf course.


--

For instance, a pilot who has no fear of a mid-air is an idiot. A
pilot who flies without being constantly aware that he/she is the main
aspect of the mid-air avoidance equation is misguided.
--Dudley Henriques

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 08:56:39 -0800, "BTIZ"
wrote in Message-Id: 7txQb.59481$zs4.25455@fed1read01:

It's called See and Be Seen.. proper use of the Mark1 Eyeball and proper
scanning techniques.

Unfortunately, F-16s are incapable of displaying a landing light in
flight, so their conspicuity is greatly reduced. Worse than that is
the inability of the GA flight to successfully avoid a high-speed
low-leval military flight by the time it is perceptible in his
windscreen.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

So far, it's been 50/50. The first high-speed low-level military
flight, that collided with a glider, was able to make it safely to its
original destination. Miraculously, the glider safely landed missing
several feet of wing and aileron! If I recall correctly, the NTSB
found the glider pilot to be at fault, despite the see-and-avoid
regulations!

The F-16 involved in the Florida MAC became uncontrollable; its
military pilot safely ejected and walked away.


Those are the only two incidents?

"Jim Baker" wrote...
get down to about 20K lbs of fuel for a no flap landing which gave an
approach/landing speed of 184 KIAS for a 210K lb. airplane.

If I'm figuring this right, that's 225 mph groundspeed at the
elevation of Ellsworth AFB. Holy smoke!

Mark