when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

I don't think so. From the AIM 3-2-4,
3. Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements. ...

NOTE-
1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(aircraft
callsign)
standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can
enter
the Class C airspace.

2. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of
Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside
the
Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

3. It is important to understand that if the controller responds to
the
initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio
communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the
Class C airspace.

EXAMPLE-
1. [Aircraft callsign] "remain outside the Class Charlie airspace
and
standby."

2. "Aircraft calling Dulles approach control, standby."


The material you quoted does not support your position.

Sure it does. My position is that radio contact where the controller uses
your tail number and lacking an explicit "remain clear" grants permission to
enter the class C. Note 1 above says this. You seem to be saying that once a
"remain clear" has been issued that the only way to reverse that is with an
explicit "cleared to enter the class C." The AIM doesn't really address this
sequence of events but does not refer to a specific clearance to enter the
class C either.




I think that this makes it pretty clear that any acknowledgement of a
specific aircraft without a specific caution to remain clear is
sufficient
radio contact to allow clearance into a Class C.


Yes, but that's not the case here. In this case there was acknowledgement
of a specific aircraft with a specific instruction to remain clear of the
Class C airspace.

I think it is the case as presented by the original poster. He had received
a "remain clear" prior to take off. After departure, he had a radio exchange
that included his tail number and took that as permission to enter the class
C.




Using your example of a subsequent instruction implicitly
canceling a previous instruction applies here as well.


It doesn't apply in this case because the instruction to remain clear of
the
Class C airspace was the only instruction issued.



Again, after departure, the pilot had a radio exchange where the controller
used his tail number. That grants permission to enter the class C.

I am based at a class C airport. I have heard "remain clear" many times. I
have never heard "cleared to enter." Subsequent radio contact that uses my
tail number is enough to rescind the "remain clear" instruction.

-------------------------------
Travis

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

Not true. A "remain clear" prior to departure is no different than one in
the air. After departure, if the controller of the class C airspace makes
radio contact, that is clearance to enter.


Wrong. I don't know who told you that but it is simply not correct. It is
illogical and unsupported by any documentation. Once instructed to remain
clear of Class C airspace you must remain clear until you receive an
instruction that permits or requires entry. That is not my opinion, that is
a fact.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

You should never hear a controller utter the words "Cleared to enter
(or cleared through)the Class C airspace". You do not need a clearance
to enter Class C, only establishment of two-way radio communications
and a Mode C transponder.


But pilots request clearance through Class C (and Class D) airspace
anyway.
What would you have the controller do, tell the pilot "unable clearance
through Class C airspace"? It's simpler just to "clear" the guy.



You lost me. If a pilot requests to transition a class C, the controller has
several options: 1) ignore the call. 2) "aircraft calling, remain clear of
the class C." 3) "Cessna 1234, remain clear of the class C." 4) "Cessna
1234, standby" 5) "Cessna 1234, roger." 6) "Cessna 1234, altimeter setting
30.04." or even 7) "Cessna 1234 transition approved."

1, 2, and 3 are indications that the tranistion is not approved. 4, 5, 6 and
7 are clearances to enter. I agree with Tom that you will probably not hear
"cleared to enter the class C" but, more to the point, you certainly don't
to hear it before entering the class C.

Why would you say it is simpler to just clear the guy? The simplest thing to
do would be to ignore the call.

-------------------------------
Travis

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

If, after having said "remain clear" the controller comes back with
"Cessna 1234, where did you want to go?" that is an implicit
clearance to enter the class C.


No, it is not. I don't know where you got that idea but it is simply not
correct. There is nothing in "Cessna 1234, where did you want to go?"
that
implies authorization to enter Class C airspace when previously told to
remain clear.

It is correct. It is radio contact which is documented as permission to
enter the class C.




Controller's know the rules. If they don't want you in their airspace,
they
will ignore you or repeat the "remain clear" instruction.


If the pilot acknowledged the first instruction to remain clear there's no
need to repeat it.



If the contoller wanted the pilot to remain clear, he would have simply
ignored him. The fact that the controller took the time to establish radio
contact - to ask a question or to provide information - is sufficient
acknowledgment (according to the AIM) that the pilot may enter the class C.

-----------------------------
Travis

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

Not true. A "remain clear" prior to departure is no different than one
in
the air. After departure, if the controller of the class C airspace
makes
radio contact, that is clearance to enter.


Wrong. I don't know who told you that but it is simply not correct. It
is
illogical and unsupported by any documentation. Once instructed to remain
clear of Class C airspace you must remain clear until you receive an
instruction that permits or requires entry. That is not my opinion, that
is
a fact.



It is common practice and expected behavior. The casual appearance of
clearance to enter the class C is documented in the AIM. The paricular
sequence of events is not.

It is no more illogical than having the controller respond with "Cessna
1234, standby" - which is explicitly documented as clearance to enter class
C airspace.

-------------------------------
Travis

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in
message
rthlink.net...

You should never hear a controller utter the words "Cleared to enter
(or cleared through)the Class C airspace". You do not need a clearance
to enter Class C, only establishment of two-way radio communications
and a Mode C transponder.


But pilots request clearance through Class C (and Class D) airspace
anyway.
What would you have the controller do, tell the pilot "unable clearance
through Class C airspace"? It's simpler just to "clear" the guy.



You lost me. If a pilot requests to transition a class C, the controller
has
several options: 1) ignore the call. 2) "aircraft calling, remain clear of
the class C." 3) "Cessna 1234, remain clear of the class C." 4) "Cessna
1234, standby" 5) "Cessna 1234, roger." 6) "Cessna 1234, altimeter setting
30.04." or even 7) "Cessna 1234 transition approved."


But the pilot didn't request transition through the Class C airspace, the
pilot requested clearance through the Class C airspace.



1, 2, and 3 are indications that the tranistion is not approved. 4, 5, 6
and
7 are clearances to enter. I agree with Tom that you will probably not
hear
"cleared to enter the class C" but, more to the point, you certainly don't
to hear it before entering the class C.

Why would you say it is simpler to just clear the guy? The simplest thing
to
do would be to ignore the call.


Because responding "Cessna 1234 cleared through Class C airspace" is simpler
than explaining to the guy that there are no clearances for VFR transition
of Class C airspace.

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

It is correct. It is radio contact which is documented as permission to
enter the class C.


It is documented that radio contact and an instruction to remain clear of
Class C airspace is not permission to enter the Class C.



If the contoller wanted the pilot to remain clear, he would have simply
ignored him. The fact that the controller took the time to establish radio
contact - to ask a question or to provide information - is sufficient
acknowledgment (according to the AIM) that the pilot may enter the
class C.


You need to review the AIM. The AIM states, "If workload or traffic
conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, the controller
will inform the pilot to remain outside the Class C airspace until
conditions permit the services to be provided."

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

It is common practice and expected behavior. The casual appearance of
clearance to enter the class C is documented in the AIM. The paricular
sequence of events is not.

It is no more illogical than having the controller respond with "Cessna
1234, standby" - which is explicitly documented as clearance to enter
class
C airspace.


You're not even trying to understand this.

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

It doesn't matter but conceptually, the "remain clear" does not expire.
The next day, the pilot will again make contact to gain entry to the
class C. The pilot will say, "Cessna 1234, 8 NE, landing Big City,
with information Echo." The controller will respond with "Cessna
1234, standby" - which is a clearance to enter the class C, negating
any previous instructions to remain clear.


You're right that he can enter Class C airspace but for the wrong reason.
The instruction to remain clear was not carried forward to the next day.
The controller tried to contact the aircraft again a couple of times, the
pilot didn't respond, the controller watched his target proceed around the
Class C airspace, so he concluded the pilot no longer wanted to enter the
airspace and discarded the strip. The call the following day is a new
flight unrelated to the previous.

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Radio contact has been established. You have pemission to enter.


No. Radio contact has been established and the pilot has been instructed to
remain clear of the Class C airspace. You do not have permission to enter.



It is not an entry requirment that the controller know where you are
or where you want to go. See and avoid is not superceded. While
it is sorted out, you may proceed in.


True dat.