Instrument rating??

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message ...
I will simply note that adding
the instrument rating will result in a decrease in your insurance premium...
denny

Is there any real evidence of this? It's certainly *not* true for me!
Avemco told me that adding an IFR rating would not change my premium
by even one cent.

-DJR

"As a pilot you may never actually achieve perfection in the air, but
you better damn well spend every second you're up there at least
trying to achieve it" Dudley Henriques

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:34:49 GMT, "Gary Drescher"
wrote:

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...
This discussion has had it's silly moments... I will simply note that
adding
the instrument rating will result in a decrease in your insurance
premium...
I will let the rocket scientists in this discussion ponder the
implications
of that...

If your implication is that the insurance companies have found that an
instrument rating improves safety, that doesn't actually follow. It could
be that the rating is diagnostic, rather than causative, of above-average
safety. You can't tell just from the correlation.

It's a very simple relationship.

The insurance companies do not give a break unless they figure they
are going to save even more money.

That follows directly that if they give pilots with an instrument
rating a cheaper premium they figure the odds are they will have to
pay out less due to that pilot being rated.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

--Gary

denny

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:34:49 GMT, "Gary Drescher"
wrote:

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...
This discussion has had it's silly moments... I will simply note that
adding
the instrument rating will result in a decrease in your insurance
premium...
I will let the rocket scientists in this discussion ponder the
implications
of that...

If your implication is that the insurance companies have found that an
instrument rating improves safety, that doesn't actually follow. It
could
be that the rating is diagnostic, rather than causative, of above-average
safety. You can't tell just from the correlation.

It's a very simple relationship.

Yes, it's fairly straightforward.

The insurance companies do not give a break unless they figure they
are going to save even more money.

Yes. So if they give a break to instrument-rated pilots, they've concluded
that instrument-rated pilots, on average, are safer than others. And let's
assume, for the sake of argument, that their conclusion is correct.

That follows directly that if they give pilots with an instrument
rating a cheaper premium they figure the odds are they will have to
pay out less due to that pilot being rated.

No, the "due to" part is precisely what does not follow. A better average
safety record on the part of instrument pilots does *not* suffice to show
that getting the rating improved their safety at all. Even if instrument
training has no effect on safety--or even if it has an overall negative
effect on safety (say, due to encouraging riskier flying than would
otherwise occur)--it's still possible for instrument-rated pilots, on
average, to fly more safely than others (which would still motivate an
insurance-premium discount). That can occur if, for example, more-capable
(and safer) pilots are much more likely than others to acquire the rating in
the first place. So as I said in my previous post, getting the rating could
be a diagnostic indicator of being a safer pilot, even if it doesn't cause
any improvement in safety--in fact, even if it has the opposite effect!

Therefore, to ascertain what effect instrument training has on pilot safety,
we need more information than just a correlation between the rating and
safety. (If I had to guess, I'd bet that instrument training does increase
safety. But that's just a hunch, not something that's derivable from the
available data.)

--Gary

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

--Gary

denny

Just to give you a data point...

I guess I fall into the low time pilot category at about 250 hours TT. My
insurance bill was about $90 lower this year possibly as a result of
attaining the instrument rating. Of course, this may be a break due to TT
rather than an IA, except that I don't think you get a break because of TT
until at least 300 hours. Oh, and I fly a PA28-140, not exactly a hotrod.

Still, I didn't get the IA for the insurance. I did it to increase the
usability of my plane. Here in NJ we get a lot of hazy summers and the
occasional scuddy days in fall/spring (ceiling around 2k).

mark

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in
This discussion has had it's silly moments... I will simply note that
adding
the instrument rating will result in a decrease in your insurance
premium...

That's not generally true at all. It's ONLY true for low time pilots
and for fast cruisers. When I owned a TriPacer I asked my broker
about what kind of discount I could expect if I got an instrument
rating, and he just laughed. Of course with my Twin Comanche it's a
very different story. You only get that discount if you own something
fast - say Mooney/Bonanza/Comanche/Viking and up.

I will let the rocket scientists in this discussion ponder the
implications
of that...

Fine. The implication is that unless you own have an airplane too
fast to scud run, an instrument rating doesn't do anything to make you
any safer. I'm pretty comfortable with that.

Michael

I just posted about this on the original thread, but my insurance went down
a whopping $90 after I picked up my IA. I was told that total time would
have a bigger effect on my premium.

mark

"Dave Russell" wrote in message
om...
"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...
I will simply note that adding
the instrument rating will result in a decrease in your insurance
premium...
denny

Is there any real evidence of this? It's certainly *not* true for me!
Avemco told me that adding an IFR rating would not change my premium
by even one cent.

-DJR

"As a pilot you may never actually achieve perfection in the air, but
you better damn well spend every second you're up there at least
trying to achieve it" Dudley Henriques

From what to what?

Mike
MU-2

"Mark Astley" wrote in message
...
I just posted about this on the original thread, but my insurance went
down
a whopping $90 after I picked up my IA. I was told that total time would
have a bigger effect on my premium.

mark

"Dave Russell" wrote in message
om...
"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...
I will simply note that adding
the instrument rating will result in a decrease in your insurance
premium...
denny

Is there any real evidence of this? It's certainly *not* true for me!
Avemco told me that adding an IFR rating would not change my premium
by even one cent.

-DJR

"As a pilot you may never actually achieve perfection in the air, but
you better damn well spend every second you're up there at least
trying to achieve it" Dudley Henriques

On 4 Mar 2004 13:53:30 -0800, (Dave Russell) wrote:


Is there any real evidence of this? It's certainly *not* true for me!
Avemco told me that adding an IFR rating would not change my premium
by even one cent.

USAIG would not insure me in an SR20 until I got my instrument rating.

In rec.aviation.piloting Dave Russell wrote:
"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message ...
I will simply note that adding
the instrument rating will result in a decrease in your insurance premium...
denny
Is there any real evidence of this? It's certainly *not* true for me!
Avemco told me that adding an IFR rating would not change my premium
by even one cent.


Agreed. My insurance never changed when I got my instrument rating.

--- Jay


--

__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

From $980 to $890, so percentage wise that's about 10% which ain't bad I
guess. This is in a PA28-140 with $1M liability and $36K on the hull. It's
not quite apples to apples year to year because I upgraded my panel and
increased my hull value to compensate. As I'm a low time pilot (about 250
TT, dead in the middle of the killing zone), it's hard to tell whether this
change in premium is strictly due to picking up the extra rating. For
example: last year I had 10 hours in type, now I have well over 100.

mark

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
link.net...
From what to what?

Mike
MU-2

"Mark Astley" wrote in message
...
I just posted about this on the original thread, but my insurance went
down
a whopping $90 after I picked up my IA. I was told that total time
would
have a bigger effect on my premium.

mark

"Dave Russell" wrote in message
om...
"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...
I will simply note that adding
the instrument rating will result in a decrease in your insurance
premium...
denny

Is there any real evidence of this? It's certainly *not* true for me!
Avemco told me that adding an IFR rating would not change my premium
by even one cent.

-DJR

"As a pilot you may never actually achieve perfection in the air, but
you better damn well spend every second you're up there at least
trying to achieve it" Dudley Henriques

(Dave Russell) wrote in message . com...
"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message ...
I will simply note that adding
the instrument rating will result in a decrease in your insurance premium...
denny

Is there any real evidence of this? It's certainly *not* true for me!
Avemco told me that adding an IFR rating would not change my premium
by even one cent.

My agent says 10%. It may be less for non-complex planes. However, it
did save me money on the Aeronca Champ.