Unintentional fully-developed spins...

OK, I'm curious. How many of you have had to recover from a fully
developed (greater than one turn), unintentional spin that occurred
during normal non-aerobatic flight?

I've got close to 1000 hours in roughly 25 different types of single
seat and higher performance two seat gliders, with stall/spin
characteristics ranging from "benign" to "interesting", and while I've
had my share of accidental spin entries (all while thermaling in
turbulent conditions), I can't remember a single one that went beyond a
quarter turn before recovery.

Where I first learned to fly gliders, everyone went up in for a single
flight in a 2-32 to do their "spin training" prior to solo. The 2-32
spins quite nicely, but the whole thing was such a bizarrely alien
experience, that was seemingly irrelevant to "normal" flying.

I experienced much more relevant spin training when I was being checked
out in a K-13 a few years later. We had about 8000 feet to waste, so
the instructor had me to set up a moderately banked turn, feed in a bit
of extra bottom rudder, then asked me to see how slowly I could fly.
After the "what the f*ck" moment as the ground and sky swapped places, I
managed to recover in a turn or so. He spent the rest of the flight
showing me how to induce and recognize different kinds of spin entries,
and how to recover from them as quickly as possible.

These days, at the beginning of each season, I make sure I have the spin
recovery procedure in the manual memorized, and try various types of
spin entries with slightly delayed recovery (roughly one quarter to one
half turn). When I first fly with water, I do the same. I have not
tried fully developed spins in any glider I've owned, other than my
DG-303 Acro. Some have been placarded against spins, in the others, I
just haven't felt it to be necessary or appropriate.

Marc

Marc Ramsey wrote "OK, I'm curious. How many of you have had to recover
from a fully
developed (greater than one turn), unintentional spin that occurred
during normal non-aerobatic flight?" [snip]

Not me personally, but I have known, or known of, several pilots who
did. Most died, after cable breaks, mismanaged aftermath, and spins
into the ground from about 600 feet. Of two who survived, one couldn't
explain why he didn't effect prompt recovery - has since given up
gliding. The other I referred to earlier - didn't realise it was a
spin, thought tail had come off.

You may not get many first person replies, because those who did are
mostly no longer with us. I would hope our training regimes strive to
prevent too many more, not only by Eric Greenwell's 4, 3 and 2 (which I
entirely support) but also by 1, time and again, until people no longer
fail to realise what they have done when they somehow skip over 4, 3,
and 2, stop panicking, and can recover.

Chris N.

Chris Nicholas wrote:

Marc Ramsey wrote:
"OK, I'm curious. How many of you have had to recover
from a fully developed (greater than one turn), unintentional
spin that occurred during normal non-aerobatic flight?" [snip]

Not me personally, but I have known, or known of, several pilots who
did. Most died, after cable breaks, mismanaged aftermath, and spins
into the ground from about 600 feet. Of two who survived, one couldn't
explain why he didn't effect prompt recovery - has since given up
gliding. The other I referred to earlier - didn't realise it was a
spin, thought tail had come off.

What I asked is if anyone here has properly recognized a spin entry,
immediately attempted recovery, and not been able to do so in well under
a turn. For my own education, I would like to know the circumstances.

You may not get many first person replies, because those who did are
mostly no longer with us. I would hope our training regimes strive to
prevent too many more, not only by Eric Greenwell's 4, 3 and 2 (which
I entirely support) but also by 1, time and again, until people no
longer fail to realise what they have done when they somehow skip over
4, 3, and 2, stop panicking, and can recover.

I feel that I, personally, benefit a great deal more from practicing to
properly recognize and recover from a spin entry immediately, than I do
from practicing initiating a spin, holding it for a few turns, then
recovering.

Marc

In article ,
Marc Ramsey wrote:

Chris Nicholas wrote:

Marc Ramsey wrote:
"OK, I'm curious. How many of you have had to recover
from a fully developed (greater than one turn), unintentional
spin that occurred during normal non-aerobatic flight?" [snip]


In slightly more than 1000 hours in all types of soaring, in ships
ranging from old wood, old metal, old glass, and new glass, I have never
had any inadvertant spin go more than 1/2 turn. That was in a 1-26 that
went "over the top" with me due to a terrrifically strong gust in a
turbulent thermal. Took me a sec to realize it was a spin entry and not
just the gust overpowering my aileron control.

I have witnessed two fully developed unintentional spins. Both by the
same pilot in two different ships. First was in a Ka-6 at altitude. I
was cruising over to join this fellow in a thermal when he just tucked
and spun two rotations before affecting recovery. He made a rather
excited radio call about the glider "spinning out from under him". I
chose not to join him in that or any other thermal. The second I saw
from the ground. The same guy was returning to the airport too low in an
SGS 1-23D. On entry to downwind (estimated to be about 700 agl), the
nose dropped sharply and the glider rotated a bit more than one full
rotation. We all thought he was going to buy the farm on that one.
Fortunately, he recovered and pulled back to wings level with about 200
feet to spare (we lost him behind the trees from our viewing angle). He
managed to land on the airport but didn't make the runway. He stopped
flying gliders after that.

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
om...
Chris Nicholas wrote:

Marc Ramsey wrote:
"OK, I'm curious. How many of you have had to recover
from a fully developed (greater than one turn), unintentional
spin that occurred during normal non-aerobatic flight?" [snip]

Not me personally, but I have known, or known of, several pilots who
did. Most died, after cable breaks, mismanaged aftermath, and spins
into the ground from about 600 feet. Of two who survived, one couldn't
explain why he didn't effect prompt recovery - has since given up
gliding. The other I referred to earlier - didn't realise it was a
spin, thought tail had come off.

What I asked is if anyone here has properly recognized a spin entry,
immediately attempted recovery, and not been able to do so in well under
a turn. For my own education, I would like to know the circumstances.

Not yet

You may not get many first person replies, because those who did are
mostly no longer with us. I would hope our training regimes strive to
prevent too many more, not only by Eric Greenwell's 4, 3 and 2 (which
I entirely support) but also by 1, time and again, until people no
longer fail to realise what they have done when they somehow skip over
4, 3, and 2, stop panicking, and can recover.

I feel that I, personally, benefit a great deal more from practicing to
properly recognize and recover from a spin entry immediately, than I do
from practicing initiating a spin, holding it for a few turns, then
recovering.

I get occasional incipient entries while thermaling, but was, I believe,
properly trained to recognize and respond appropriately, so none have
developed into full spins inadvertantly. I do practice this regularly also
and do a 1-2 turn spin from time to time.

The Brits had a training concept when I initially learned to soar, 'recovery
from unusual attitudes'. The instructor would but the glider in an awkward
attitude and allow the student to recover to straight and level. Could be
nose up, down, cross controls, whatever. The important part was the proper
input to get things back in control.

I recall one odd day when flying my SHK not too far off the Anglia coast. I
think the air had a bit of shear. I went to turn to the left, but the
glider definitely wanted to roll right. Speed was fine, but I had the
distinct impression that the air was rolling or in vertical shear in a
clockwise direction. After a few seconds things went back to normal, but
for a bit I thought I'd flick over the top of the turn and I really wasn't
looking forward to it.

Frank Whiteley


Frank

Marc Ramsey wrote:

OK, I'm curious. How many of you have had to recover from a fully
developed (greater than one turn), unintentional spin that occurred
during normal non-aerobatic flight?


Well I haven't.

An interesting aside, especially in view of the comments about spinning (or
not) ballasted.

I still have on my shelf a copy of George Moffat's "Winning on the Wind"
which includes his account of the 1970 Worlds at Marfa (which he won). He
mentions a hair-raising inadvertent spin in the (presumably ballasted)
Nimbus 1 in which he lost 1500 ft and recovered by "flexing the floppy
wings by yanking on the stick". Don't try this at home.

--
Soar the big sky
The real name on the left is richard

Richard Brisbourne wrote:

I still have on my shelf a copy of George Moffat's "Winning on the
Wind"
which includes his account of the 1970 Worlds at Marfa (which he won).
He mentions a hair-raising inadvertent spin in the (presumably
ballasted) Nimbus 1 in which he lost 1500 ft and recovered by "flexing
the floppy
wings by yanking on the stick". Don't try this at home.

I have twice spun a Nimbus II. Both occasions it was fully ballasted.
Both followed the same sequence of events.

A pull up from high cruise speed to enter a thermal - about 3 G's,
followed by lots of aleron and rudder to get the big wings into a turn
before flying out the other side of the thermal - simultaneously with a
push over at the top of the zoom climb. Got the nose below the horizon
with a little less airspeed on the clock than I would have liked but in
a turn and in the thermal. But both times I neglected to set the flaps
from full negative to full thermal ...

The glider dropped a wing and went straight into a spin. But it
recovered equally quickly with appropriate procedures. Nothing dramatic
like Moffat Nimbus I story.

With positive flaps, it would just mush, it never dropped a wing.

I would not recommend thermal entries like that from low altitude, or
with other gliders anywhere nearby, either below or above. I never
intentionally spun the Nimbus, either with or without ballast.

Ian

Ian Forbes wrote:
I have twice spun a Nimbus II. Both occasions it was fully ballasted.
Both followed the same sequence of events.

A pull up from high cruise speed to enter a thermal - about 3 G's,
followed by lots of aleron and rudder to get the big wings into a turn
before flying out the other side of the thermal - simultaneously with a
push over at the top of the zoom climb. Got the nose below the horizon
with a little less airspeed on the clock than I would have liked but in
a turn and in the thermal. But both times I neglected to set the flaps
from full negative to full thermal ...

The glider dropped a wing and went straight into a spin. But it
recovered equally quickly with appropriate procedures. Nothing dramatic
like Moffat Nimbus I story.

With positive flaps, it would just mush, it never dropped a wing.

Generally flapped gliders are much more reluctant to spin with negative
flaps, and for my ASW 20 and ASH 26, going to negative flap per the
manual quickens the recovery. Is this not true for the Nimbus II?

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Earlier, Marc Ramsey wrote:

OK, I'm curious. How many of you have
had to recover from a fully developed
(greater than one turn), unintentional
spin that occurred during normal non-
aerobatic flight?

I've watched an ASW-20, flown by a well-respected pilot,
flick into a spin while thermalling. Including the
recovery, it went about a turn and a half. The thing
that impressed me about it was the dynamic and asymmetric
flexing of the wings in the entry. I seem to recall
that it was an over-the-top entry, but I could be wrong
on that. I have no idea what precipitated the entry,
but I can say that it made more of an impression on
my opinion of the ship than on my opinion of the pilot.

I came away from that incident wondering to what degree
the limber structures of second-generation composite
wings might interact with hard-to-predict post-stall
aerodynamic behaviors to incite spin entries and perhaps
inhibit recovery.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.

During the Dutch Nationals quite a few years ago I was flying a Pik-20D. My
experience with this glider was that it was very reluctant to enter a spin.
My son flew an asw-20 borrowed from a friend at the same occasion. While
seriously banking at a turnpoint in order to take a photo the glider started
a steep turn. After about one full rotation my son managed to stop the spin,
but guess what the asw-20 dove straight away in rotation again but now in
the other direction. He recovered within one rotation again and came out
with the nose of the glider pointing vertically to the ground. Luckely high
enough to return to the normal flying mode. We decided that he would fly the
PIK-20D in following competitions.

Karel, NL
"Bob Kuykendall" schreef in bericht
...
Earlier, Marc Ramsey wrote:

OK, I'm curious. How many of you have
had to recover from a fully developed
(greater than one turn), unintentional
spin that occurred during normal non-
aerobatic flight?

I've watched an ASW-20, flown by a well-respected pilot,
flick into a spin while thermalling. Including the
recovery, it went about a turn and a half. The thing
that impressed me about it was the dynamic and asymmetric
flexing of the wings in the entry. I seem to recall
that it was an over-the-top entry, but I could be wrong
on that. I have no idea what precipitated the entry,
but I can say that it made more of an impression on
my opinion of the ship than on my opinion of the pilot.

I came away from that incident wondering to what degree
the limber structures of second-generation composite
wings might interact with hard-to-predict post-stall
aerodynamic behaviors to incite spin entries and perhaps
inhibit recovery.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.