27 crash at Ely?

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 9:09:19 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:03:12 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.


"Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.

And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
- no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.

Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
good piloting?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Not keeping the speed up; and I mean 5-10kn over smooth air and terrain depending how rough it maybe. It's way too easy too lose control in slow speeds and even stall in rough air. Being close to the rocks is a personal choice, some feel more comfortable being closer than others and that is just the way it is, there is no hard rules in regards to that. Obviously stay far enough to be out of trouble. "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.

My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying - not stalled -
but not fast enough to generate roll greater than the excess lift under one wing.
Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

....or it could, and likely would, put the wing into a deep stall.

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 9:09:19 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
"Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent
spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.

My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying
- not stalled - but not fast enough to generate roll greater than
the excess lift under one wing.
Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.

Not just rudder, but push forward on the stick as well. Stall speed decreases as G load decreases. When attempting to thermal and maneuver near the rocks, I always make sure that I can dive out of trouble - NEVER PULL! So if the glider starts getting squirrely or tossed around, I push, bank, and rudder to get away from the rocks. If full aileron and staying coordinated isn't enough, then slamming the rudder to help the roll works nicely. The glider shouldn't stall as I approach zero G, but if it does, the incipient spin and recovery is still helping me get away from the rocks.

Just as with aerobatics and other advanced maneuvers, don't do this without proper training and/or practice in a safe environment. And if you plan to use a tool such as this, make sure you've been practicing, so it's second nature. Diving at the ground and obstacles is something that has to be learned and counterintuitive for the novice.

In the flatlands east of the Colorado Front Range, I've experienced a downburst several times, and generally at 1000-1500' AGL near the airport. The glider starts to feel like it's falling and airspeed is dropping. I push the nose forward and even when in what seems like a 45 degree dive, I'm still barely above stall speed. The ground is coming up fast, but I don't dare to pull back. Eventually, airspeed builds, and I end up levelling off at less than 100' and 90-110 KIAS or more. Luckily this has only happened either directly over the runway, or on downwind, and I had enough energy to make a safe landing. But I was prepared to make a controlled crash in the direction I was headed. A similar technique applies when working a thermal below the ridge crest.

5Z

The procedure is push and hard rudder. Ther are situations where this is the only way out.

As 5Z and Tango Whisky says.
If you don’t know how to use rudder to help lifting a wing than you missing fundamental knowledge.
This is not only helpful in cruise but also on takeoff roll and tow.
This not to be confused with cross control or with attempt to expedite a base to final turn, this may kill you.

Ramy

2G wrote on 7/22/2020 9:28 PM:
On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 9:09:19 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:03:12 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.


"Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.

And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
- no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.

Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
good piloting?



Not keeping the speed up; and I mean 5-10kn over smooth air and terrain depending how rough it maybe. It's way too easy too lose control in slow speeds and even stall in rough air. Being close to the rocks is a personal choice, some feel more comfortable being closer than others and that is just the way it is, there is no hard rules in regards to that. Obviously stay far enough to be out of trouble. "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.

My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying - not stalled -
but not fast enough to generate roll greater than the excess lift under one wing.
Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.


....or it could, and likely would, put the wing into a deep stall.

If the dropping wing is stalled, opposite rudder is part of the spin recovery; if
the dropping wing isn't stalled (the case we were discussing), opposite rudder
will increase the lift on the wing, and help overcome the rolling induced by the
updraft. I think most of us would automatically apply full rudder anyway, when
they applied full aileron.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 12:55:12 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
The procedure is push and hard rudder. Ther are situations where this is the only way out.

Stupid question: if you push to zero-G, wouldn't then the yaw caused by the "hard rudder" have zero rolling effect, since both wings have zero AOA, thus the differential airspeed doesn't matter?

So many folks seem to be afraid of the rudder.Â* It's just another flight
control and, properly used as Tom says, can make the difference.Â* I use
lots of rudder routinely in the Stemme to get the nose down after a
sharp pull up in a thermal.Â* There's a lot of momentum in the Stemme due
to its weight at speed and it takes a steep pull to center a thermal
quickly.Â* Hard left rudder (since I'm on that side of the aircraft) gets
the nose slicing down towards the horizon.Â* Remove most of the rudder
and apply back stick to recover at or slightly below the horizon.

And BTW, I'll argue that there's no such thing as "stall speed", it's
always about angle of attack.Â* Unloading the aircraft reduces AoA,
keeping it below the critical angle.

On 7/22/2020 10:45 PM, 5Z wrote:
On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 9:09:19 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
"Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent
spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.

My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying
- not stalled - but not fast enough to generate roll greater than
the excess lift under one wing.
Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.
Not just rudder, but push forward on the stick as well. Stall speed decreases as G load decreases. When attempting to thermal and maneuver near the rocks, I always make sure that I can dive out of trouble - NEVER PULL! So if the glider starts getting squirrely or tossed around, I push, bank, and rudder to get away from the rocks. If full aileron and staying coordinated isn't enough, then slamming the rudder to help the roll works nicely. The glider shouldn't stall as I approach zero G, but if it does, the incipient spin and recovery is still helping me get away from the rocks.

Just as with aerobatics and other advanced maneuvers, don't do this without proper training and/or practice in a safe environment. And if you plan to use a tool such as this, make sure you've been practicing, so it's second nature. Diving at the ground and obstacles is something that has to be learned and counterintuitive for the novice.

In the flatlands east of the Colorado Front Range, I've experienced a downburst several times, and generally at 1000-1500' AGL near the airport. The glider starts to feel like it's falling and airspeed is dropping. I push the nose forward and even when in what seems like a 45 degree dive, I'm still barely above stall speed. The ground is coming up fast, but I don't dare to pull back. Eventually, airspeed builds, and I end up levelling off at less than 100' and 90-110 KIAS or more. Luckily this has only happened either directly over the runway, or on downwind, and I had enough energy to make a safe landing. But I was prepared to make a controlled crash in the direction I was headed. A similar technique applies when working a thermal below the ridge crest.

5Z

--
Dan, 5J

wrote on 7/23/2020 7:18 AM:
On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 12:55:12 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
The procedure is push and hard rudder. Ther are situations where this is the only way out.

Stupid question: if you push to zero-G, wouldn't then the yaw caused by the "hard rudder" have zero rolling effect, since both wings have zero AOA, thus the differential airspeed doesn't matter?

Because the wing has dihedral, the yaw from left rudder will give the right wing
more AOA, and left wing less AOA. And vice versa, of course.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

You guys are having a January bull session in July... go fly!

5Z and Tango Whiskey and Hightime speak the truth.

Every Glider Pilot both Flatlanders and Mountains pilots should know this life saving, pretty basic maneuver.
If your in a loosing battle with roll control it IS " Time to push and apply full or Hammer the rudder.
The push to near or at zero G is so important. No stall= No spin

Just last Saturday flying out of Nephi Ut in the flats of the valley over Yuba Res I had a thermal kick me into a 80 degree bank.
Full roll control wasn't enough so I pushed to about .1 G and full ruddered it back level. I've done this about 100 times in my soaring career.

Use all the controls to the max when things start to get sideways. And always Push forward.
A early flight instructor once said to me " move the controls to make the plane do what you want it to do".
This accident that started this thread is tough to take. Poor guy hit the hill.
I think its obvious when that happens he was too close.
Awful hard on his friends and family but it sounds like it was over very quickly.
Fly safe in 2020
Nick
T