Gear Warning

There is a solution to this problem; I learned it the
hard way. Say to yourself 'The gear HANDLE is at the
gear-down ICON. A fellow in Minden told me this beforehand.
I didn't pay a lot of attention. I paid a lot of
money. Now I use this phrase religiously.


I switched between three new to me gliders in 4 days.
The retract movement was in opposite directions on
two of them. I went the lwrong way on the last flight.
Use the words HANDLE and ICON.



At 22:24 16 November 2005, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Mike the Strike wrote:
I prefer check lists, but must note I have seen another
colleague
return from a flight with gear extended then retract
it on final as he
went through his pre-landing checks!

Same thing happened to me on my first flight in the
first glider I
owned. On pattern entry I went through my pre-landing
checklist,
operated the gear handle, opened the spoilers, then
heard a load beeping
noise. Closed the spoilers, beeping stopped. It took
a fair bit of
contemplation to recognize that the glider might have
a gear warning
system. A quick glance at the gear position symbols
allowed me to solve
the mystery while still plenty high. I must have forgotten
to retract
the gear after release...

Marc

For what its worth, for many years now as I transition to a new
glider, one of the first things I add is two small squares of colored
plastic tape, a green block at the end of the "gear down and locked"
end of the handle travel, and a red block at the "gear retracted" end
of the handle travel.

As I turn final, I will often take a quick glance at the gear lever to
make sure it is at the "green" end.

Bob

On 18 Nov 2005 16:45:40 GMT, Nyal Williams
wrote:

There is a solution to this problem; I learned it the
hard way. Say to yourself 'The gear HANDLE is at the
gear-down ICON. A fellow in Minden told me this beforehand.
I didn't pay a lot of attention. I paid a lot of
money. Now I use this phrase religiously.


I switched between three new to me gliders in 4 days.
The retract movement was in opposite directions on
two of them. I went the lwrong way on the last flight.
Use the words HANDLE and ICON.



At 22:24 16 November 2005, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Mike the Strike wrote:
I prefer check lists, but must note I have seen another
colleague
return from a flight with gear extended then retract
it on final as he
went through his pre-landing checks!

Same thing happened to me on my first flight in the
first glider I
owned. On pattern entry I went through my pre-landing
checklist,
operated the gear handle, opened the spoilers, then
heard a load beeping
noise. Closed the spoilers, beeping stopped. It took
a fair bit of
contemplation to recognize that the glider might have
a gear warning
system. A quick glance at the gear position symbols
allowed me to solve
the mystery while still plenty high. I must have forgotten
to retract
the gear after release...

Marc

I fly with a gear warning and several times it has told me that I had
lowered the U/C but not locked it home properly.

On the other side I personally know two very experienced pilots on the
types they were flying who happily landed with no wheel despite the
incessant beeping.

Personally I think the BGA is right in that I'd much rather land with
the wheel up than stall at 10 feet up despite the cost that could ensue.
Mind you my Astir would probably win even if I landed on the tarmac :-)

Cheers

Robin

In message , Bob Gibbons
writes
For what its worth, for many years now as I transition to a new
glider, one of the first things I add is two small squares of colored
plastic tape, a green block at the end of the "gear down and locked"
end of the handle travel, and a red block at the "gear retracted" end
of the handle travel.

As I turn final, I will often take a quick glance at the gear lever to
make sure it is at the "green" end.

Bob

On 18 Nov 2005 16:45:40 GMT, Nyal Williams
wrote:

There is a solution to this problem; I learned it the
hard way. Say to yourself 'The gear HANDLE is at the
gear-down ICON. A fellow in Minden told me this beforehand.
I didn't pay a lot of attention. I paid a lot of
money. Now I use this phrase religiously.


I switched between three new to me gliders in 4 days.
The retract movement was in opposite directions on
two of them. I went the lwrong way on the last flight.
Use the words HANDLE and ICON.



At 22:24 16 November 2005, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Mike the Strike wrote:
I prefer check lists, but must note I have seen another
colleague
return from a flight with gear extended then retract
it on final as he
went through his pre-landing checks!

Same thing happened to me on my first flight in the
first glider I
owned. On pattern entry I went through my pre-landing
checklist,
operated the gear handle, opened the spoilers, then
heard a load beeping
noise. Closed the spoilers, beeping stopped. It took
a fair bit of
contemplation to recognize that the glider might have
a gear warning
system. A quick glance at the gear position symbols
allowed me to solve
the mystery while still plenty high. I must have forgotten
to retract
the gear after release...

Marc






--
Robin Birch

Personally I think the BGA is right in that I'd much rather land with
the wheel up than stall at 10 feet up despite the cost that could ensue.

The point is that very, very, few flights arrive for a landing without
opening the spoilers for the first time (when the warning would go off)
at 10 ft off the ground. Much more often that happens much earlier when
it's quite safe to lower the gear and still make a safe landing.

At 10 feet, I would agree that for most pilots it would be best to leave
the gear where it is.

Tony V.

Tony Verhulst wrote:

The point is that very, very, few flights arrive for a landing without
opening the spoilers for the first time (when the warning would go off)
at 10 ft off the ground. Much more often that happens much earlier when
it's quite safe to lower the gear and still make a safe landing.

At 10 feet, I would agree that for most pilots it would be best to leave
the gear where it is.

I agree. It seems to me that the BGA's recommendation is poorly thought
out. Every other sphere of aviation with a retractable gear has made
warning systems compulsory and while gear errors still occur the
frequency is quite low. In particular, the warning system is not blamed
for the accident - which is the topsy-turvy logic of the BGA's policy.

In most of aviation, accidents involving gear warnings are (rightly)
attributed to poor pilot training or lack of familiarity/recency on type
and something is done about the training system and the pilot's competence.

Blaming the warning system is irrational.

Graeme Cant




Tony V.

At 16:42 18 November 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Don Johnstone wrote:
At 03:42 18 November 2005, Wayne Paul wrote:


Or a Radio Shack piezo buzzer (smoke alarm.) In fact
it is so loud that I
mounted it in a sound attenuation box.

It is actuated when flap setting is greater then 40
degrees and gear is up.


and if that goes off at 50 feet on a marginal final
glide when you have kept the glider clean to get onto
the field?

I'm sure Wayne will tell you why this isn't a problem.
But, how can we
avoid the problem suggested by the question?

You can't if a warning is fitted and I accept that
in some cases it will never be a problem because of
aircraft/approach type.
Malfunctioning warnings: one that goes off when it
shouldn't shortly
before touch down seems so rare it's not worth worrying
about. Gear
warnings save enough damage and blocked runways that
I think they add
more safety than this situation subtracts.

It is not just a malfunction even a real warning at
that height can distract enough from 'flying the aeroplane'
to turn an incident into a serious crash. I have never
heard of anyone being seriously injured or killed as
the result of a wheels up. There have been accidents
involving serious injury as the result of undercarriage
warnings.

Pilots that don't check their spoilers until close
to the ground: this
seems like a training issue or self-discipline issue,
either about
pre-landing checks, or very marginal returns to the
airport.

Marginal glides are very common in competitions.

Pilots who react poorly to a gear warning when low:
perhaps this can be
handled as a training issue. I've seen several pilots
extend their gear
safely at the last moment (less that 50' above the
ground) and land
normally, and never seen an accident from doing that,
so it's possible
to do, even with pilots not trained and ready for it.
Perhaps pilots
with gear warnings should occasionally practice this
at altitude,
opening the spoilers with the gear up, then lowering
the gear.

There is a world of difference between deliberately
leaving the gear selection to very late to achieve
the best glide and being startled by a sudden loud
noise in the cockpit. It is the unexpected and the
'instinctive' reaction that is the root of the problem.

The best
procedure for dealing with the warning when close to
the ground could be
selected (just put the gear down, or maybe close the
spoilers first, or
even 'ignore the damn thing and land on the belly').

The last is the only option imo which begs the question...........

Don Johnstone wrote:

It is not just a malfunction even a real warning at
that height can distract enough from 'flying the aeroplane'
to turn an incident into a serious crash. I have never
heard of anyone being seriously injured or killed as
the result of a wheels up. There have been accidents
involving serious injury as the result of undercarriage
warnings.

This seems to be a UK problem, not a US problem. Have other countries
experienced the UK situation? Do other national gliding organizations
recommend against gear warning devices (the SSA in the US does not)? Are
there any US pilots that wish they had not installed a gear warning device?


Pilots that don't check their spoilers until close
to the ground: this
seems like a training issue or self-discipline issue,
either about
pre-landing checks, or very marginal returns to the
airport.


Marginal glides are very common in competitions.

The US is working on this problem, at least for the final glide. The
major concern is the marginal glide, not the possibility of an accident
caused by a gear warning device. I imagine an attempt to ban gear
warning devices from contests would be even more unpopular the new ELT
requirement!


Perhaps pilots
with gear warnings should occasionally practice this
at altitude,
opening the spoilers with the gear up, then lowering
the gear.


There is a world of difference between deliberately
leaving the gear selection to very late to achieve
the best glide and being startled by a sudden loud
noise in the cockpit. It is the unexpected and the
'instinctive' reaction that is the root of the problem.

I can't say for sure practicing would be effective, but I think it would
help. We practice for other unexpected things, like rope breaks.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

At 05:48 17 November 2005, Andy Blackburn wrote:
At 21:54 16 November 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:

If it was...your wife's voice on the recording do you

think you would still filter it out?

Wow, nobody bit on this one?

9B

I am married - of course I filter out what she is saying
most of the time, I would go bonkers other wise.
Luckily she dosnt read this site ):-

I don't think the BGA's logic is at all at fault. What
they are pointing out is that gear warning systems
can be a double edged sword. While they may be appropriate
for private gliders flown by experienced pilots who
have worked out a plan to react to they may not be
appropriate for gliders flown by pilots with a broad
ability and experience spread.
They also push the idea that there is no substitute
for airmanship and configuring a glider for the intended
stage of flight is basic airmanship. By all means use
warning gizzmos as a backup, we all make mistakes,
but relying on them to remove or reduce the need for
proper airmanship is not the way to go. Remember that
many safety rules assume the worst case scenario and
of course mainly legislate for the less knowledgeable.
Competent pilots don't need to know there is a rule,
barring mistakes they fly sensibly anyway.

At 07:18 22 November 2005, Graeme Cant wrote:
Tony Verhulst wrote:

The point is that very, very, few flights arrive for
a landing without
opening the spoilers for the first time (when the
warning would go off)
at 10 ft off the ground. Much more often that happens
much earlier when
it's quite safe to lower the gear and still make a
safe landing.

At 10 feet, I would agree that for most pilots it
would be best to leave
the gear where it is.

I agree. It seems to me that the BGA's recommendation
is poorly thought
out. Every other sphere of aviation with a retractable
gear has made
warning systems compulsory and while gear errors still
occur the
frequency is quite low. In particular, the warning
system is not blamed
for the accident - which is the topsy-turvy logic of
the BGA's policy.

In most of aviation, accidents involving gear warnings
are (rightly)
attributed to poor pilot training or lack of familiarity/recency
on type
and something is done about the training system and
the pilot's competence.

Blaming the warning system is irrational.

Graeme Cant




Tony V.

In article ,
Don Johnstone
wrote:

I don't think the BGA's logic is at all at fault. What
they are pointing out is that gear warning systems
can be a double edged sword. While they may be appropriate
for private gliders flown by experienced pilots who
have worked out a plan to react to they may not be
appropriate for gliders flown by pilots with a broad
ability and experience spread.

While I'm reading all this, I'm thinking something isn't
adding up.

Gear warning systems go off if the airbrakes are opened
while the gear is retracted, right?

Now think of the BGA's position: They're worried about
damage and injury caused by a gear warning which goes off
last the last minute, causing a pilot to lose control
of the landing as they fumble the controls as they drop
the undercarriage.

.... which is what doesn't add up. What kind of pilot does
the BGA think is going to be surprised by a gear warning
buzzer when they're close to the ground? I mean, seriously,
if a pilot has managed to get to 10 or 20 feet off the ground
before they've opened the airbrakes then their training has
bigger problems than anything that can be solved by talking
about the importance of pre-landing checks! Surely in the
real world the gear warning alert goes off near the top of
final approach, just after the pilot has identified an
overshoot situation and opted to open the airbrakes, right?

We're obviously all missing something here. What has
prompted the BGA to issue a position paper which, on first
appearances, makes no sense?

- mark