#1 Piston Fighter was British

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Now you are getting silly.


Now you're confusing silliness with logic.

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 7/1/03 8:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 01 Jul 2003 15:17:22 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

f course not. Equally, you'll never know the feeling of going up
against Fw 190s in an Airacobra or desperately trying to evade a Wild
Sau nightfighter over Berlin or clambering out of a landing craft in
the teeth of enemy machine-gin

You are right. Tell me about it. II want to hear it form the horses mouth.
No
offense of course..

How did you learn to use the Norden? Did you design, buld and test it
yourself or did somebody else do it for you? In which case, don't
bother telling me about bomb-aiming and Norden issues, I'd rather have
it from the horses' mouth.

Gavin Bailey


Gee, come to think about it I never did talk much about the Norden. There seems
to be zero interest in it. Are you sure you won't reconsider killfiling me?
Please.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr wrote:

snip

should have said the war in western europe. Sorry I left that out.

Fair enough, and I agree that the critical period in the west was
D-Day to V-E Day. Nonetheless, the real war existed beforehand. Like
Paul, I'd have been interested to

In Western Europe before D Day there were only impotent failed thrusts that led
to nothing. Dieppe for example. The moment the first Allied soldier set foot
on the Normandy beach, the end was in sight for Germany. We flew two missions
that day. You would have loved the fun.

In all fairness, Dieppe was a raid. It not intended to take and
hold territory, but rather only as a test of the German's
defenses. Dieppe did establish that any Allied invasion of
Europe would mean coming across the beach and not by capturing
and using a sea port.

Dieppe had its value, and its cost. Was it worth it? I don't
know.

David

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 7/1/03 8:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 30 Jun 2003 17:53:46 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

There were two constants on every mission. One was the 180mph cruise.

How would you know? Did you handle the throttles and observe the ASI
all the time? Did you calibrate the ASI youself? Did you experience
cleaning and replacing the pitot head personally or did you pick that
up third-hand?

The
second was the 4,000 pound bomb load.

Did you measure the weight yourself to confirm this, or were you
relying on other people to weigh & load the bombload?

I can still feel that 100 octane eating into my skin.

How did you know it was 100 octane and not 100/115 or 130/150 or 87
octane with the wrong dye? Does 100 octane provide a specific and
unique dermatological irritation which you recognised? In which case,
were you a qualified dermatologist to make that diagnosis in the first
place?

Gavin Bailey


I was the navigator as well as the Bombardier.. I calculated all ETA's on
180mph indicated converted to groundspeed to get ETA's. We calibrated our
airspeed indicators based on measured speed runs during shakedowns and
calibrated errors accordingly. I had a full set of instruments in front of me
at all times and watched them carefully. We had to hold airspeed to zero
tolerence to get bombing accuracy. We carried 8 500 pound bombs which I was
responsible for inspecting the loading, checking the arming wires for security
and making sure all the A=2 bomb shackles were properly installed.God, I never
dreamt you knew so little.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: David Lentz
Date: 7/1/03 9:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:



ArtKramr wrote:

snip

should have said the war in western europe. Sorry I left that out.

Fair enough, and I agree that the critical period in the west was
D-Day to V-E Day. Nonetheless, the real war existed beforehand. Like
Paul, I'd have been interested to

In Western Europe before D Day there were only impotent failed thrusts that
led
to nothing. Dieppe for example. The moment the first Allied soldier set
foot
on the Normandy beach, the end was in sight for Germany. We flew two
missions
that day. You would have loved the fun.

In all fairness, Dieppe was a raid. It not intended to take and
hold territory, but rather only as a test of the German's
defenses. Dieppe did establish that any Allied invasion of
Europe would mean coming across the beach and not by capturing
and using a sea port.

Dieppe had its value, and its cost. Was it worth it? I don't
know.

David


It was a terrible blow to Biritsh morale.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 01 Jul 2003 15:59:19 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Are you sure you won't reconsider killfiling me?
Please.

Put your money where your mouth is. You claim to want to killfile me:
do so.

If you want to discuss something, talk about the "impotence" of my
relatives who were fighting the war long before you arrived on the
scene. Eight times to Berlin.

How many times did you do that?

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

On 01 Jul 2003 16:11:57 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

I was the navigator as well as the Bombardier.

Sorry, I thought I was in your killfile. Did you make your own maps,
or did others do that for you? Did you make your B-26 by hand in your
own garage, or did others do that for you? Who taught you to navigate
or use the Norden, or did you invent mathematics, geometry,
cartography and precision bombsight engineering yourself?

In short, where does the tyranny of your own experience end, and other
people begin?

We carried 8 500 pound bombs which I was
responsible for inspecting the loading, checking the arming wires for security
and making sure all the A=2 bomb shackles were properly installed.

So you didn't weigh them, you just took it on trust that they weighed
500lbs?

God, I never dreamt you knew so little.

You have no problems dismissing or demeaning literally millions of
people. I'm happy enough to be in their company. I'm still going to
thank you for what you did.

Gavin Bailey


--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 09:04:22 GMT, (The
Revolution Will Not Be Televised) wrote:

More
Packard Merlins were going into Hurricane Xs for delivery to the
Russians than into Kittyhawks or Mosquitos.

Actually, on second thoughts, I'm not sure about that. I don't
actually have any figures for Hurricane X/P-40F deliveries in 1941-42
beyond what went to the Middle East and general statements reserving
the Canadian Hurricanes for Russia. I'm not sure if the P-40F's came
out of the original British Packard Merlin allocation, but apparently
the US P-40's came out of the American allocation (3,000 vs 6,000 to
the British).

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised wrote:

On 01 Jul 2003 16:11:57 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

I was the navigator as well as the Bombardier.

Sorry, I thought I was in your killfile. Did you make your own maps,
or did others do that for you? Did you make your B-26 by hand in your
own garage, or did others do that for you? Who taught you to navigate
or use the Norden, or did you invent mathematics, geometry,
cartography and precision bombsight engineering yourself?

You've made a fair point about personal experience versus historical
record, but you're really starting to sound asinine in this effort.

I think all will agree there is a place for history and a place for
personal experience. We can probably all agree reading something and
personally experiencing something are not equivalent.

We can probably all agree that being told our knowledge is inadequate
because it was not obtained by personal experience, or that your personal
experience is "wrong" or not general, based on someone's readings, can be
annoying in the extreme.

Leave it at that and move on. No killfiling required from anyone!


SMH

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:21:49 GMT, (The Revolution
Will Not Be Televised) wrote:


If you want to discuss something, talk about the "impotence" of my
relatives who were fighting the war long before you arrived on the
scene. Eight times to Berlin.

How many times did you do that?

He sure as hell wasn't freezing the ******** off himself on artic convoys
as my maternal grandfather was.


greg



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