What GA needs

"Morgans" wrote in message
news

A properly indexed and balanced prop is not going to be worse than a prop
isolated from the engine, either.


How does properly indexing and balancing a prop reduce torsional vibration?

Bottom line is that flying, like skiing, scuba diving, skydiving,
motocross, etc is not for everyone.

Ron Lee

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
Bottom line is that flying, like skiing, scuba diving, skydiving,
motocross, etc is not for everyone.


If it is not, why shouldn't it be? Besides, how does GA compare to any of
those activities? You are inside a heated motor vehicle, that usually
affords passengers, and has a much better safety record.

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
Bottom line is that flying, like skiing, scuba diving, skydiving,
motocross, etc is not for everyone.

Well., you have to wear a FACE MASK OR GOGGLES for all those hobbies.

Gotta be more annoying than headphones.

Of course, how many people wander around with a Walkman blasting in their
ears?

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:07:43 -0700, Andrew Sarangan
wrote:

This is a follow-on to the various discussions on the future of GA.

Why aren't the kids who grew up with cell phones and iPods not
interested in aviation?

One key factor is the antiquated airplanes we fly. If we could only
drive a1975 Chevy Nova or something similar, with bolted down wooden
panels and foggy instruments, I doubt many teenagers would be earger
to get their drivers license.

The second aspect is the fascination pilots seem to have with war
equipment, and the yearning for the 'good ol days'. Many pilots look
at a WW2 airplane like a B17 as if it were a technological marvel.
That may be true, but it just doesn't connect with the new generation.
Even though I am not from the iPod generation, I too found this
fascination with war equipment rather strange. Perhaps it is because
no one in my anscestry participated in the war.

How many kids do you see hanging around at antique car shows? Airports
are not too far from being an antique museum.

Aviation technology has marched on in great strides in the past 50
years. But almost all of the modernization has occured due to the
advancement in electronics. This is the only aspect that keeps some of
us still interested in aviation. That includes VOR, GPS, satellite
weather, flight planning tools, electronic charts, glass panels etc..
The mechanical aspects have been stagnant. All these modern
electronics are still housed in ancient aluminum panels that are
riveted togother. They creak and vibrate, and the engines consume
leaded fuel and puff out smoke and oil, and have frightening gas
mileage.

In order to appeal to the next generation, this is what I think we
need:
- a small turbine engine suitable for GA aircraft with fewer moving
parts and smoother operation
- gas mileage comparable to an SUV
- a fully composite airframe
- molded aesthetic interiors
- cost about 2-3x the price of a luxury car

You were doing fine until the last item. 2-3X the price of a luxury
car? Would this be $150,000? You just priced the majority of people
out of the market. I've owned 2 airplanes (not at once) hold a
Commercial, Instrument and Multi engine ratings. After 4000+ hours, I
had to give it up. I can't afford aviation any more than I can afford
a boat. I make more than a lot of people do, but not enough.

The list is very ambitious, but we are on the right path with LSA.
What is still seriously lacking is the powerplant.
I would really like to see is a small turbine engine. I don't mean
salvaged APUs. It has to be something that is designed from the bottom
up as a GA powerplant.

Any comments?

You have it.
Zaroc

"Zaroc Stone" ...
You were doing fine until the last item. 2-3X the price of a luxury
car? Would this be $150,000? You just priced the majority of people
out of the market. I've owned 2 airplanes (not at once) hold a
Commercial, Instrument and Multi engine ratings. After 4000+ hours, I
had to give it up. I can't afford aviation any more than I can afford
a boat. I make more than a lot of people do, but not enough.

I've seen a lot of pilots who stop flying "cold turkey". The common first
reason given was money, but asking more questions revealed they were more
concerned about their skill degradation and the perceived value. Most of
these guys had some hard IMC in their past with the acquired skill and
equipment to match. Most viewed it as a challenge, like a mountain to climb.
Now they've "been there done that", with the nagging knowledge that their
skills have atrophied and it's costing them $400 to go up for an hour.

Side note: You're probably rolling your eyes about that $400 number. But
remember you are probably not that owner of a 30yo hi-perf airplane that has
gotten a total of 25 hrs over the last two years, with bladders, an
intermittent avionics problem, and a new Garmin " just because it would get
you interested again".

It is very hard to get these guys to give up on the Hard IMC paradigm and
get back into less complex airplanes. Their main excuse is always Speed.
Sometimes I'm successful and get them into a club; sometimes they just walk
away with their memories.

My experience of the typical flying club member: 10 to 20 hours per year,
about $100 per hour with no sales tax, and a general low whine about
availability without any actual example of when he couldn't get a plane.
That really is flying heaven for most.

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:21:05 GMT, "Mike Isaksen"
wrote:


"Zaroc Stone" ...
You were doing fine until the last item. 2-3X the price of a luxury
car? Would this be $150,000? You just priced the majority of people
out of the market. I've owned 2 airplanes (not at once) hold a
Commercial, Instrument and Multi engine ratings. After 4000+ hours, I
had to give it up. I can't afford aviation any more than I can afford
a boat. I make more than a lot of people do, but not enough.

I've seen a lot of pilots who stop flying "cold turkey". The common first
reason given was money, but asking more questions revealed they were more
concerned about their skill degradation and the perceived value. Most of
these guys had some hard IMC in their past with the acquired skill and
equipment to match. Most viewed it as a challenge, like a mountain to climb.
Now they've "been there done that", with the nagging knowledge that their
skills have atrophied and it's costing them $400 to go up for an hour.

Side note: You're probably rolling your eyes about that $400 number. But
remember you are probably not that owner of a 30yo hi-perf airplane that has
gotten a total of 25 hrs over the last two years, with bladders, an
intermittent avionics problem, and a new Garmin " just because it would get
you interested again".

It is very hard to get these guys to give up on the Hard IMC paradigm and
get back into less complex airplanes. Their main excuse is always Speed.
Sometimes I'm successful and get them into a club; sometimes they just walk
away with their memories.

My experience of the typical flying club member: 10 to 20 hours per year,
about $100 per hour with no sales tax, and a general low whine about
availability without any actual example of when he couldn't get a plane.
That really is flying heaven for most.

Everyone's situation is a bit different. I sold a 1967 Mooney S-21. I
delivered it to the buyer and had someone pick me up in a car to get
home. The next time I would fly was when my wife bought me an hour in
a Cessna 172 with an instructor of course. We flew from Centennial to
Colorado Springs for a brunch and then home. He had me do the flying
and it had been 20 years. The only thing he had to tell me was that
it might be a good idea to slow down, I was still at cruise when I
turned final. The mechanics were still there, it is like riding a
bike. Both landings were perfect.

When I was active, we used the airplane for cross country flights.
We've been across the US a dozen or more times. Relatives are in
Sandpoint, Idaho, Great Falls, Montana and near Teterboro, N.J. A
flight club probably wouldn't work because of the down time away from
base. I used to fly 3 - 5 times a week. I was as proficient as
possible. Everytime the weather went IFR, I was up there doing
practice approaches, no auto-pilot except the Mooney
wing-leveler. I could safely go 3 hours on the panel then I needed
to get on the ground. So, you're right it isn't just about flying,
it's about proficiency as well. If I couldn't afford to get up there
like I did, I wouldn't feel or be safe. I could afford a club, maybe
a fixed gear single and fly a few hours a month, but when I was
flying, gasoline was $5.00 an hour, (10gph @.50¢ a gallon) in the
Mooney). I was up there a lot.

The Cherokee we had was a 140. We moved from Pennsylvania to Colorado
and I had the nerve to fly it into Leadville Airport. 9963 msl. The
flight was planned so we landed about 8 am and took off at 8:30 am.
With two of us, the take-off was successful; good thing the ground
sloped downward and was mostly flat. Another time I tried to take a
friend from Denver to Kremling. We tried to get through Loveland Pass
twice. A downdraft had other ideas. After 3 tries, we gave up.
Shortly after that, I did a checkout in a V-Tail Bonanza (H-model)
then the Mooney. I bought the Mooney. And to be sure, I miss it. To
fly safely and live here, I'd need some degree of performance.

I trip around Landings.Com now and then. If I have nothing to do on a
Saturday I might get out my logbook and see where my old birds are.
The Cherokee we had crashed in Wisconsin a little over a year after I
traded it in. NTSB report said the air filter was clogged. What a
shame. Two on board, both survived. The aircraft was not salvaged. My
Mooney was ditched in lake Michigan. He ran out of gas but was able
to reach shore and keep it from going under water. The plane was
salvaged, fixed up and the last I saw of it, N3247F was for sale.
Maybe mentally, I'm still up there..somewhere.

I have an old FS program. I used to enjoy chosing the Lear25 and
flying off into the blue. I'd eat dinner and get back to the computer
and see where I was. That's my flying today.

Zaroc

Zaroc Stone wrote:

You were doing fine until the last item. 2-3X the price of a luxury
car? Would this be $150,000? You just priced the majority of people
out of the market. I've owned 2 airplanes (not at once) hold a
Commercial, Instrument and Multi engine ratings. After 4000+ hours, I
had to give it up. I can't afford aviation any more than I can afford
a boat. I make more than a lot of people do, but not enough.


You can't afford a boat? What the hell is there to afford there? I
bought my brothers boat this spring. Ten year old Bayliner 20 foot
speedboat we use for skiing, cruising the Bighorn Canyon, etc. After
the initial outlay of $8000 it costs virtually nothing to own. 32
gallons of gas lasts a weekend.

"Newps" wrote

You can't afford a boat? What the hell is there to afford there? I
bought my brothers boat this spring. Ten year old Bayliner 20 foot
speedboat we use for skiing, cruising the Bighorn Canyon, etc. After the
initial outlay of $8000 it costs virtually nothing to own. 32 gallons of
gas lasts a weekend.

Wait until the outdrive craps out, or some other major engine problem
surfaces.

Boat stands for "break out another thousand."
--
Jim in NC

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:25:37 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Newps" wrote

You can't afford a boat? What the hell is there to afford there? I
bought my brothers boat this spring. Ten year old Bayliner 20 foot
speedboat we use for skiing, cruising the Bighorn Canyon, etc. After the
initial outlay of $8000 it costs virtually nothing to own. 32 gallons of
gas lasts a weekend.

Wait until the outdrive craps out, or some other major engine problem
surfaces.

Boat stands for "break out another thousand."

My last boat was a 23' Zobel. Had a 6cyl greymarine in it and
everytime we went out, spent $50 on gas. That was in 1967, before I
went to aviation. Again, I'm just not satisfied with floating around,
going fishing. I'd want to be back on the coast so I could run from
Seattle to San Diego - Bar Harbor to Ft. Lauderdale would be Ok too.

I am very close to retirement. End of the year. We plan to move back
east and live near a nice big lake. I might build a full sized model
of the African Queen, find a steam engine and just burn wood.
Zaroc