New winch height record

On Nov 29, 10:24 pm, "Sönke Gutzlaff" wrote:
I've learned that 100km/h is fast enough, our instructors even say 90km/h
ist the perfect speed for the 21 to gain maximun high.
I had lot of cable breaks this year and no problems with the speed. You've
only to react fast enough. And the 21 is a very friendly flying plane (with
our other planes, especially the ASW19 I prefer higher speeds on winch
launch) and you normaly are not pulling the stick full back before you reach
the safety high.

What do your instructors say about using back-stick in the K21?

I just did my annual winch-launch checks and mine wouldn't let me use
any back-stick at all. A K21 will still launch perfectly well like
that but I *know* that I'm not getting the best out the launch like
that. On the other hand my instructor did play a neat trick on me - he
distracted me by suddening say "look at that plane!" and pulling the
release at the same time. I *did* hesitate in getting the nose down
and even though it was only a small delay by the time I'd finished the
push-over to the recovery attitude there was only 40 knots on the
clock. Took a fair few seconds to get the speed back up before braking
down to a straight-ahead landing.

That was a bit of an eye-opener, to be honest.


Dan

On Nov 29, 11:34 pm, Del C
wrote:
The K21 seems to climb as well as anything on a winch
launch, despite being a bit big and heavy. Probably
only a K8 will beat it.

I agree although last weekend it was so windy the K8 was just getting
blown about all over the place and in the hands of several pilots,
including our DCFI, was only getting 1,500', compared to 1,900-2,000'
for the K21 (assuming the weak link didn't break on the way up). In
calmer conditions the 8 usually has the edge.

What does Lasham teach on stick position for the 21 during launch?

We have a couple of DG1000s and they don't climb quite
as well. If you pull the stick well back, a sort of
pitching motion seems to set in as though the elevator
is stalling.

I had that in a K13 once - it's definitely the tailplane stalling.
Quite an interesting experience.


Dan

Well, if you have the stick fully back (which I often have, and don't object
to with my students), you
1) are above safety altitude
2) pay attention.

Bert

"Dan G" wrote in message
...
On Nov 29, 10:24 pm, "Sönke Gutzlaff" wrote:
I've learned that 100km/h is fast enough, our instructors even say 90km/h
ist the perfect speed for the 21 to gain maximun high.
I had lot of cable breaks this year and no problems with the speed. You've
only to react fast enough. And the 21 is a very friendly flying plane
(with
our other planes, especially the ASW19 I prefer higher speeds on winch
launch) and you normaly are not pulling the stick full back before you
reach
the safety high.

What do your instructors say about using back-stick in the K21?

I just did my annual winch-launch checks and mine wouldn't let me use
any back-stick at all. A K21 will still launch perfectly well like
that but I *know* that I'm not getting the best out the launch like
that. On the other hand my instructor did play a neat trick on me - he
distracted me by suddening say "look at that plane!" and pulling the
release at the same time. I *did* hesitate in getting the nose down
and even though it was only a small delay by the time I'd finished the
push-over to the recovery attitude there was only 40 knots on the
clock. Took a fair few seconds to get the speed back up before braking
down to a straight-ahead landing.

That was a bit of an eye-opener, to be honest.


Dan

"S??nke Gutzlaff" wrote:

"Dan G" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
moment's hesitation you could end up very nose-high without much
speed...

best precondition to safely fly a hammerhead while actively releasing
remainder of cable since you certainly strictly adhered to:

launch) and you normaly are not pulling the stick full back before you reach
the safety high.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobatic_maneuver

Dan G wrote:

What do your instructors say about using back-stick in the K21?

The same as in any other glider: Use as needed to keep your target speed.

On Nov 30, 11:05 am, John Smith wrote:
Dan G wrote:
What do your instructors say about using back-stick in the K21?

The same as in any other glider: Use as needed to keep your target speed.

That's what I think but I put this specifically to the full cat* I was
flying with and he disagreed, saying "you'll risk spinning on the
wire" if you use "any" back stick in the K21, and that you should ride
the speed with the elevator neutral throughout the launch until you
need to wave-off (signal the winch driver to slow down by waggling the
tail).

shrugs .


Dan

*in the UK there are three categories of instructor: "full" is the
highest, the others being "basic" and "half"

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:54:16 +0100, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

Well, if you have the stick fully back (which I often have, and don't object
to with my students), you
1) are above safety altitude
2) pay attention.

- already have a significant nose-down force by cable tension because
of your height


Bye
Andreas

At Lasham for the K21 we teach holding the stick about
two-thirds of the way forward for the ground run and
safety climb and then easing back to give the correct
climb angle with the wingtips about 45 degrees to the
horizon. You don't have to pull back quite so hard
to achieve this as you do in our K13 basic trainers,
and you shouldn't be right on the back stop.

Incidentally the K21 will do a perfectly acceptable
(although not optimal) winch launch if you just hold
the stick in the centre of the elevator range and leave
it there throughout the launch. It is probably the
easiest and safest glider to winch launch there is,
with a very wide speed range (anywhere between 50 and
81 knots will do), and very benign stalling characteristics.


Del Copeland

At 00:24 30 November 2007, Dan G wrote:
On Nov 29, 11:34 pm, Del C
wrote:
The K21 seems to climb as well as anything on a winch
launch, despite being a bit big and heavy. Probably
only a K8 will beat it.

I agree although last weekend it was so windy the K8
was just getting
blown about all over the place and in the hands of
several pilots,
including our DCFI, was only getting 1,500', compared
to 1,900-2,000'
for the K21 (assuming the weak link didn't break on
the way up). In
calmer conditions the 8 usually has the edge.

What does Lasham teach on stick position for the 21
during launch?

We have a couple of DG1000s and they don't climb quite
as well. If you pull the stick well back, a sort of
pitching motion seems to set in as though the elevator
is stalling.

I had that in a K13 once - it's definitely the tailplane
stalling.
Quite an interesting experience.


Dan

Del C wrote:

At Lasham for the K21 we teach holding the stick about
two-thirds of the way forward for the ground run and
safety climb and then easing back to give the correct
climb angle with the wingtips about 45 degrees to the
....

I consider this mechanical approach completely wrong.

On the ground run, use the stick as needed to keep the glider on the
ground. (This may or may not be 2/3 forward.) (Personally, I start with
the stick fully forward and then ease it slowly back until the glider
begins to fly. I have no idea at which stick position this happens.)

On initial climb, use the stick as needed to do a smooth transition, and
watch your speed.

On climb, use the stick as needed to keep your target speed. (If this
means neutral or at the back stop, so be it.)

Your target speed dictates the climb angle, and this may or may not be
45 dgrees, depending on the winch and the glider and probably a lot of
other things.

If you teach a mechanical apporach, then you are going to be in big
trouble if sometimes you happen to fly at a different location.

John,

With the Tost winches we use at Lasham, the pilot has
no control over the speed, unlike the torque or tension
controlled Supacat or MEL winches. Nethertheless he
is still expected to monitor the airspeed, especially
during the safety climb, and not to initiate the rotation
until it is adequate. After that we expect him to hold
a steady attitude and allow the winch driver to control
the speed and power. If the airspeed gets too high
the pilot signals to the winch driver by waggling the
tail with the rudder. If it gets too slow, he lowers
the nose slightly to reduce the risk of stalling and
also to signal to the driver that more power is required.
The pilot could also of course be a she.

The original question from Dan G was what do we teach
at Lasham, where we have very powerful winches (as
does his own club). You may have to climb more gently
with less powerful winches. The point you make is a
good one.

Del Copeland

At 10:54 01 December 2007, John Smith wrote:
Del C wrote:

At Lasham for the K21 we teach holding the stick about
two-thirds of the way forward for the ground run and
safety climb and then easing back to give the correct
climb angle with the wingtips about 45 degrees to
the
....

I consider this mechanical approach completely wrong.

On the ground run, use the stick as needed to keep
the glider on the
ground. (This may or may not be 2/3 forward.) (Personally,
I start with
the stick fully forward and then ease it slowly back
until the glider
begins to fly. I have no idea at which stick position
this happens.)

On initial climb, use the stick as needed to do a smooth
transition, and
watch your speed.

On climb, use the stick as needed to keep your target
speed. (If this
means neutral or at the back stop, so be it.)

Your target speed dictates the climb angle, and this
may or may not be
45 dgrees, depending on the winch and the glider and
probably a lot of
other things.

If you teach a mechanical apporach, then you are going
to be in big
trouble if sometimes you happen to fly at a different
location.