Survivability in Combat

Let's take two planes going on low level support missions. They will have to
fly through heavy ground fire including small arms fire. One plane is equipped
with a radial engine,. let's say an R-2800. The other with a jet engine. Which
plane would have a better chance of survival inder these conditions?. Opinions?

Regards,


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Let's take two planes going on low level support missions. They will have to
fly through heavy ground fire including small arms fire. One plane is
equipped
with a radial engine,. let's say an R-2800. The other with a jet engine.
Which
plane would have a better chance of survival inder these conditions?.
Opinions?

I'm going with the jet. Would rather have speed to limit time in the
danger zone than a rugged radial that can take a hit, but is slow enough
to assure being hit.

But for "cool" factor the round engine wins. (Jets are for kids)

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Let's take two planes going on low level support missions. They will have
to
fly through heavy ground fire including small arms fire. One plane is
equipped
with a radial engine,. let's say an R-2800. The other with a jet engine.
Which
plane would have a better chance of survival inder these conditions?.
Opinions?

Regards,

The one who manages to avoid getting hit of course!!!
:-)

I would imagine after the last thread on radials that your point here might
be that the radials have been known to take hits even to the point of taking
out several cylinders and God knows what else and return home, as opposed to
a jet engine where the dynamic balance of the compressor and turbine
sections are so delicate.
Honestly Art, I think it's a crap shoot. I know guys who flew wounded jets
home to the boat with most of the parts banging away inside the engine and
the aircraft shaking so badly it threatened to come apart.
There are so many variables in this equation that it's really hard to make a
call. For example, are the run in speeds the same? (Time in the kill zone)
These things usually boil down to who gets lucky and who doesn't. Who takes
what hit, how many, what caliber, and where on the airframe. This is just
one of those subjects that can go every which way but loose.
I know one guy who would tell you that if he had a choice of any bird in the
world to go strafing in, it would be a Jug. He didn't like the plumbing on
the inlines for low work. Ed will probably tell you that on the target run
itself it's a crap shoot, but that there's nothing alive that can catch a
Thud on a level run going in and going out...jink or no jink, especially if
there's a drink on the bar waiting :-)).
It's interesting that of the two examples I'm coming up with here, both
involve The Republic Airplane and Brick Manufacturing Company. :-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

I would imagine after the last thread on radials that your point here might
be that the radials have been known to take hits even to the point of taking
out several cylinders and God knows what else and return home, as opposed to
a jet engine where the dynamic balance of the compressor and turbine
sections are so delicate.
Honestly Art, I think it's a crap shoot. I know guys who flew wounded jets
home to the boat with most of the parts banging away inside the engine and
the aircraft shaking so badly it threatened to come apart.
There are so many variables in this equation that it's really hard to make a
call. For example, are the run in speeds the same? (Time in the kill zone)
These things usually boil down to who gets lucky and who doesn't. Who takes
what hit, how many, what caliber, and where on the airframe. This is just
one of those subjects that can go every which way but loose.
I know one guy who would tell you that if he had a choice of any bird in the
world to go strafing in, it would be a Jug. He didn't like the plumbing on
the inlines for low work. Ed will probably tell you that on the target run
itself it's a crap shoot, but that there's nothing alive that can catch a
Thud on a level run going in and going out...jink or no jink, especially if
there's a drink on the bar waiting :-)).
It's interesting that of the two examples I'm coming up with here, both
involve The Republic Airplane and Brick Manufacturing Company. :-))

A-1 Skyraider w/badass Irishman/Germanic/English/etc. etc. pirate...

-Mike ('nuff said) Marron

Some fragments of a post made few years ago by
(ALEXEI GRETCHIKHINE) about Su-25 Frogfoot survivability in Afghanistan:

Quote
.... One particular Su-25 (actually preproduction T-8-15 or Blue 15) flown by
Colonel Alexander V. Rutskoj was damaged by AAA and two (!) AIM-9L
Sidewinders launched by Pakistani F-16s. Both times the aircraft brought
pilot back to base. It was "refurbished" in Tbilisi and after receiving new
paint job and bort number Blue 301 it was displayed in Paris in 1989. It was
further modified for the weapon trials which included S-240 and S-25 330 mm
unguided rockets. This aircraft currently on display at Khodynka Museum.

Here are few more stories highlighting Su-25 roughness:

-Major Rubalov's Su-25 was hit in the engine which surged and flooded an
engine bay with fuel, the cockpit was shattered, buster controls are gone
and major's face covered with blood. None of the dials in the cockpit worked
and his wingman guided him to the final approach. After belly landing, major
rushed away from the Su-25 fearing that plane going to explode. After
figuring that this is not going to happen, he got back to the aircraft and
cut the engine.

-Another Su-25 was on fire which burned out most of the wiring and 95% of
horizontal tail controls. In few moments before the landing, fire short cut
the gear release wires and Su-25 made "conventional" landing.

-Lieutenant Golubtsov's Su-25 lost half of its rudder along with breaks.
After landing his a/c ended up off runaway and rolled into adjacent mine
field. He was forced to wait in the cockpit till mine squad cleared his way
out.

-One Su-25 brought a missile in the engine which failed to detonate. (SAM?)

-Rutskoi's Su-25 was hit by AAA (ZGU) when a missile (Blowpipe) hit right
engine (head on - it "turned off" the engine though the intake). Second AAA
finally managed to shot it down. This is a second Frogfoot he flew (not the
preproduction T-8-15 Blue 15 which was damaged twice). Rutskoi spent some
time as Pakistani POW and was shortly exchanged.
....
End quote
--

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

Subject: Survivability in Combat
From: "Nele VII" AP
Date: 12/6/03 11:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Some fragments of a post made few years ago by
(ALEXEI GRETCHIKHINE) about Su-25 Frogfoot survivability in Afghanistan:

Quote
... One particular Su-25 (actually preproduction T-8-15 or Blue 15) flown by
Colonel Alexander V. Rutskoj was damaged by AAA and two (!) AIM-9L
Sidewinders launched by Pakistani F-16s. Both times the aircraft brought
pilot back to base. It was "refurbished" in Tbilisi and after receiving new
paint job and bort number Blue 301 it was displayed in Paris in 1989. It was
further modified for the weapon trials which included S-240 and S-25 330 mm
unguided rockets. This aircraft currently on display at Khodynka Museum.

Here are few more stories highlighting Su-25 roughness:

-Major Rubalov's Su-25 was hit in the engine which surged and flooded an
engine bay with fuel, the cockpit was shattered, buster controls are gone
and major's face covered with blood. None of the dials in the cockpit worked
and his wingman guided him to the final approach. After belly landing, major
rushed away from the Su-25 fearing that plane going to explode. After
figuring that this is not going to happen, he got back to the aircraft and
cut the engine.

-Another Su-25 was on fire which burned out most of the wiring and 95% of
horizontal tail controls. In few moments before the landing, fire short cut
the gear release wires and Su-25 made "conventional" landing.

-Lieutenant Golubtsov's Su-25 lost half of its rudder along with breaks.
After landing his a/c ended up off runaway and rolled into adjacent mine
field. He was forced to wait in the cockpit till mine squad cleared his way
out.

-One Su-25 brought a missile in the engine which failed to detonate. (SAM?)

-Rutskoi's Su-25 was hit by AAA (ZGU) when a missile (Blowpipe) hit right
engine (head on - it "turned off" the engine though the intake). Second AAA
finally managed to shot it down. This is a second Frogfoot he flew (not the
preproduction T-8-15 Blue 15 which was damaged twice). Rutskoi spent some
time as Pakistani POW and was shortly exchanged.
...
End quote
--

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA



Thanks for that informative reply.But would it have done better with radials?
I guess we will never know.

Regards,


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 02:15:49 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

Dudley, would you post a brief bio for us? I think I recall P-51s, but
I don't have any notion of your career. When were you in the
USAF/USAAF? For whom a commercial pilot? Where taught?

Thanks!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 02:15:49 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

Dudley, would you post a brief bio for us? I think I recall P-51s, but
I don't have any notion of your career. When were you in the
USAF/USAAF? For whom a commercial pilot? Where taught?

I am a civilian pilot Ford, not military. Obviously you haven't yet done
enough research. Lots of public record on this.

How and why I have flown military airplanes is none of your business.

Although I can't stop you from going down the road I believe you're thinking
of going with this, I will tell you that I don't like this type of post .
Do your own legwork Ford. There are many sources of public information on
me, and what's not there, I have no desire to share with someone as
obviously hostile to me as you are with this post.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong in what I'm reading from your post here. If I am,
please feel free to dig up and post anything you wish that's public
information on me. If I'm not wrong, I feel compelled to advise you to be
extremely careful where you go with this in a public forum.
Your call !
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt





Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

From: "Dudley Henriques"

"Cub Driver" wrote in message

Dudley, would you post a brief bio for us? I think I recall P-51s, but
I don't have any notion of your career. When were you in the
USAF/USAAF? For whom a commercial pilot? Where taught?

I am a civilian pilot Ford, not military. Obviously you haven't yet done
enough research. Lots of public record on this.

How and why I have flown military airplanes is none of your business.

Although I can't stop you from going down the road I believe you're thinking
of going with this, I will tell you that I don't like this type of post .
Do your own legwork Ford. There are many sources of public information on
me, and what's not there, I have no desire to share with someone as
obviously hostile to me as you are with this post.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong in what I'm reading from your post here. If I am,
please feel free to dig up and post anything you wish that's public
information on me. If I'm not wrong, I feel compelled to advise you to be
extremely careful where you go with this in a public forum.
Your call !
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

Dudley Henriques

Am I missing something here? I see nothing "hostile" in the request. I also see
nothing wrong with simply saying "I'd rather not say" as a response.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

(B2431) wrote:

From: "Dudley Henriques"

"Cub Driver" wrote in message

Dudley, would you post a brief bio for us? I think I recall P-51s, but
I don't have any notion of your career. When were you in the
USAF/USAAF? For whom a commercial pilot? Where taught?

I am a civilian pilot Ford, not military. Obviously you haven't yet done
enough research. Lots of public record on this.

How and why I have flown military airplanes is none of your business.

Although I can't stop you from going down the road I believe you're thinking
of going with this, I will tell you that I don't like this type of post .
Do your own legwork Ford. There are many sources of public information on
me, and what's not there, I have no desire to share with someone as
obviously hostile to me as you are with this post.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong in what I'm reading from your post here. If I am,
please feel free to dig up and post anything you wish that's public
information on me. If I'm not wrong, I feel compelled to advise you to be
extremely careful where you go with this in a public forum.
Your call !
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

Dudley Henriques

Am I missing something here? I see nothing "hostile" in the request. I also see
nothing wrong with simply saying "I'd rather not say" as a response.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Touchy lil ****er ain't he?...
--

-Gord.