Wow

Hey John,

Were you at Pleiku during the period May-Nov 68??

I flew with the 361st Aerial Weapons Company (Pink Panthers) at Camp
Holloway then (first half of second tour). Started with C-model Huey
gunships, we switched to the Cobra in about June if memory serves. I sure
did love that bird. :-)))

Paul

"Big John" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:11:30 -0800 (PST), William Hung
wrote:

On Mar 3, 10:08 am, Big John wrote:
-----------clip---------------

I heard the Helio also has crabbing gears. Ia that right?

------------------------clip-----------------------

Wil

I flew the Helio Courier (USAF U-10) with castering gear.

Felt crazy after landing and nose weather vaned into the cross wind.

If you took off with gear unlocked you landed with it unlocked. This
was to prevent a malfunction and only one gear locking if you tried to
lock in air. Landing with one locked and one unlocked would probably
cause an accident or ground loop at least.

You could unlock in air for landing as no failure in unlocking system.

I played with system to keep current but never had to use it in
practice.

Big John

Did you fly in 'Nam John?

WIl

************************************************** *********

Yep.

0-1 and 0-2. (350+ combat hours)

Ran II DASC at Pleiku during TET era (67-68).

Big John

On Mar 2, 9:17*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Then there's the FBW Airbusses.
Every time I talk to one of those guys I walk away more confused about how
the flight controls work than I was before.

And I hate to tell you this, but it shows.

A good friend of mine (and in fact the guy who taught me to fly my
Twin Comanche when I bought it) went from captain of the DC9 to 727 to
A320 to 757, and has a lot of good things to say about all of them -
except for the A320. We're both engineers by training, so it only
took him about an hour or two to explain that flight control system to
me. Mostly my response was "What?!?!?!?" and "You gotta be kidding."

It's a perfect example of what happens when you allow the engineers to
design the user interface. It usually turns into something only an
engineer will want to use.

I saw this video when someone emailed me a link to it - before I saw
this thread - and I knew right away what sort of plane it was. I
can't recognize them by sight - but from the way it was behaving, it
was obvious what the pilot was trying to do - and why it wasn't
letting him. Only then did I really believe my friend.

I know you mentioned proportional mode upthread - but it does not mean
what you think it means. You still can not command a deflection - or
anything that would act like a deflection. What you command is a
rate. In other words, down low it doesn't do what it does up high
(your understanding is correct there) but it still doesn't act like an
airplane.

You can not slip an A320 - not even down low. Try to find an A320
driver who is trained as an engineer (and not one who scraped by on
C's) and he will probably be able to explain it to you. Once you
understand it, you will understand why the pilot did what he did, why
the crosswing limit is so low, and why you probably wouldn't have done
any better.

Michael

Michael wrote in
:

On Mar 2, 9:17*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Then there's the FBW Airbusses.
Every time I talk to one of those guys I walk away more confused
about how

the flight controls work than I was before.

And I hate to tell you this, but it shows.


Not in this case.


A good friend of mine (and in fact the guy who taught me to fly my
Twin Comanche when I bought it) went from captain of the DC9 to 727 to
A320 to 757, and has a lot of good things to say about all of them -
except for the A320. We're both engineers by training, so it only
took him about an hour or two to explain that flight control system to
me. Mostly my response was "What?!?!?!?" and "You gotta be kidding."


Well, that i can believe.

It's a perfect example of what happens when you allow the engineers to
design the user interface. It usually turns into something only an
engineer will want to use.


Couldn't agree more.


I saw this video when someone emailed me a link to it - before I saw
this thread - and I knew right away what sort of plane it was. I
can't recognize them by sight - but from the way it was behaving, it
was obvious what the pilot was trying to do - and why it wasn't
letting him. Only then did I really believe my friend.


Well, it depends.

I know you mentioned proportional mode upthread


No, I mentioned direct law.


- but it does not mean
what you think it means.
You still can not command a deflection - or
anything that would act like a deflection. What you command is a
rate. In other words, down low it doesn't do what it does up high
(your understanding is correct there) but it still doesn't act like an
airplane.

You can not slip an A320 - not even down low. Try to find an A320
driver who is trained as an engineer (and not one who scraped by on
C's) and he will probably be able to explain it to you. Once you
understand it, you will understand why the pilot did what he did, why
the crosswing limit is so low, and why you probably wouldn't have done
any better.


Maybe, but it's besides the point. I made it clear that whoever or
whatever decided to handle the airplane in the way it was handled, it
was the wrong way. I didn't say I would have done any better, BTW, and
at no time did I blame the crew. The reason I posted it in the first
place was to dispel the urban legend that airliners were kciked straight
and to illustrate what happens when they are..


Bertie

Robert Moore wrote in
46.128:

Bertie wrote
The reason I posted it in the first place was to dispel the urban
legend that airliners were kciked straight and to illustrate what
happens when they are..

I kicked Boeing jetliners straight for 25 years...B-707, B-727.
Never had a problem.

Case of having to in both of those. I did it in the 727 and it workd, but
it's not as effective as putting a wing down. It's a much more stable way
of putting it down. No side load, the controls are already steady in the
positions best suited for th erollout and there's not a lot of juggling
going on to transition.
But the most disturbing thing I found about landing the 727-200 in a crab
was if the runway was narrow (say 150') and your mains were straddling the
centerline, the cockpit was nearly over the runway edge if the wind was
strong enough!



Bertie

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 17:37:43 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in :

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...=phpOltUWB.jpg



Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick it straight"
when they land, like this guy did, show em this...



Bertie

I just sent this out this afternoon to our human factors people as an
example of how deeply a pilot has to fly into a problem before realizing
it isn't going to solve using existing control authority.
Absolutely amazing! This guy is on the way to a memo from the Chief
Pilot's office fairly soon I would imagine.
Glad they made it out of there.

Coming out of Logan International one day the guy beside me must have
noticed the white knuckle grip on the arm rest, when he asked if I was
OK. I just replied, "Sometimes it's better not to know what's going
on"

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote in
:

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 17:37:43 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in :

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUW
B.jpg



Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick it
straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em this...



Bertie

I just sent this out this afternoon to our human factors people as an
example of how deeply a pilot has to fly into a problem before
realizing it isn't going to solve using existing control authority.
Absolutely amazing! This guy is on the way to a memo from the Chief
Pilot's office fairly soon I would imagine.
Glad they made it out of there.

Coming out of Logan International one day the guy beside me must have
noticed the white knuckle grip on the arm rest, when he asked if I was
OK. I just replied, "Sometimes it's better not to know what's going
on"

I know the feeling and I know it well. It's a pilot thing, I think.
We're all control freaks.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Roger wrote in
:

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 17:37:43 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in :

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUW
B.jpg


Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick it
straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em this...



Bertie
I just sent this out this afternoon to our human factors people as an
example of how deeply a pilot has to fly into a problem before
realizing it isn't going to solve using existing control authority.
Absolutely amazing! This guy is on the way to a memo from the Chief
Pilot's office fairly soon I would imagine.
Glad they made it out of there.
Coming out of Logan International one day the guy beside me must have
noticed the white knuckle grip on the arm rest, when he asked if I was
OK. I just replied, "Sometimes it's better not to know what's going
on"

I know the feeling and I know it well. It's a pilot thing, I think.
We're all control freaks.

Bertie

They showed this approach on FOX News tonight.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

I know the feeling and I know it well. It's a pilot thing, I think.
We're all control freaks.

Bertie

They showed this approach on FOX News tonight.


Yeah, they're showing it everywhere! It's the rubberneck syndrome at it's
finest, eh?


Bertie

On Mar 3, 3:48*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
I know you mentioned proportional mode upthread
No, I mentioned direct law.

My mistake. Point still holds. Direct law doesn't command a
deflection (or anything that acts like a deflection) either. I seem
to recall there is a mode that will allow you to command something
that acts a lot like a deflection - but it's considered a very
degraded mode, and you can't access it without pulling a bunch of
breakers.

You can not slip an A320 - not even down low.
Maybe, but it's besides the point.

Um, no - that is the point. If you can't slip, you have no choice but
to crab and kick it out. You mentioned some airplanes that could not
be slipped because of physical limitations (scraping engines and such)
but this is a plane that can't be slipped because of SOFTWARE
limitations.

More than likely, the pilot had the stick all the way to the right
well before the left wing scraped - but you couldn't see it in the way
the plane flew. You can't command aileron deflection with the stick -
all you can command is the maximum available roll rate - and the
computer decides what that is, not you. And cross control confuses
it. And because of the autothrottle control (the one that yells
'retard' at you when it's time to land - no joke) that maintains a
constant ground speed (sic!), you really can't time it very well with
a lot of headwind because you float forever.

I made it clear that whoever or
whatever decided to handle the airplane in the way it was handled, it
was the wrong way.

Because of the software, there is no right way. In most cases, the
demonstrated crosswind component is not really an operating limitation
(though I suppose under 121 it might legally be one - I've forgotten a
lot about that stuff since I took my ATP) because it all depends on
how the pilot handles it. But with the 320 it really is the limit -
because the software won't let you do what it takes to do better.

I didn't say I would have done any better, BTW, and
at no time did I blame the crew. The reason I posted it in the first
place was to dispel the urban legend that airliners were kciked straight
and to illustrate what happens when they are..

Except that some of them are - most because of physical limitations,
but this one because of the software.

Michael

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

I know the feeling and I know it well. It's a pilot thing, I think.
We're all control freaks.

Bertie

They showed this approach on FOX News tonight.


Yeah, they're showing it everywhere! It's the rubberneck syndrome at it's
finest, eh?


Bertie
It's amazing how interested" the public gets in aviation when you show
them things like this.

--
Dudley Henriques