Airspeed of military planes

This is about it as I remember it . It amounted to keeping it down to a low
roar, using the corridors and restricted areas when at all possible; not
****ing off the surrounding areas; the FAA; and not ****ing off Admiral
Brown! :-) I'm not sure how the AF guys fared under AF 60.16. Probably about
the same I would imagine. The whole idea was to allow for the performance of
the airplanes while not abusing the regulation. It seemed to work well as
long as everybody had their head screwed on straight. I'm pretty sure it's
still this way, but there have been incidents. The Viper hitting that Cessna
in Florida might have changed things a bit.
Dudley

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:iHBQb.115054$nt4.462505@attbi_s51...
"Ed Rasimus" wrote...

Things have undoubtedly changed since my last military flight, but the
applicable section of AFR 60-16 which was the governing regulation on
flight operations was that the max airspeed below 10,000 feet MSL was
250 KIAS unless the aircraft operating manual required higher. "We
don' need no steenkin' waivers."

The Navy version is OPNAVINST 3710.7. The latest version I have is .7S,
dated
15 Nov 2001:

"1.2.3 Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).

"Naval aircraft shall be operated in accordance with applicable provisions
of
FAR, Part 91, except:

. . .

"b. Where exemptions or authorizations issued to the Department of the
Navy/Department of Defense permit deviation from FAR.
Exemptions/authorizations
currently on file that allow deviation from FAR, Part 91.

"(1) Section 91.117 (Aircraft Speed). Operation of naval aircraft at
speeds
in excess of limits imposed by section 91.117 shall be governed by
paragraph
5.1.4 of this instruction."


The pertinent section of 5.1.4 is:

"5.1.4.2 Policy. In accordance with FAA authorization, flight operations
below
10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed in excess of 250 knots are
authorized
under the following conditions:

"a. Within restricted areas.

"b. Within military operations areas.

"c. When operating on DOD/FAA mutually developed and published routes.

"d. When operating on DOD-developed and DOD-published VR routes. Such
routes
shall be established for specific missions and used only by designated
units
when the provisions of a through c above will not accommodate the required
national defense mission. Routes shall be developed and published in
accordance
with DOD/FAA mutually developed criteria.

"e. When operating within large-scale exercises or on short-term
special
missions approved by commanders listed in paragraph 5.1.4.3. Such
exercises or
missions may be authorized provided that coordination is effected to
ensure
awareness on the part of the nonparticipating flying public.

"f. If the airspeed required or recommended in the aircraft NATOPS
manual to
maintain safe maneuverability is greater than the maximum speed described
in
FAR, Part 91.117, the aircraft may be operated at that speed. Where the
required
or recommended speed is given as a range, the lower part of the speed
range
consistent with good operating practice should be used. The primary
purpose of
this provision is to accommodate climbs, descents, and terminal area
operations
and shall not be used to circumvent the provisions of sub-paragraphs
above.
Under no circumstance will this safe maneuverability provision be
construed as
authorization for individual pilots or mission commanders to conduct other
flights below 10,000 feet in excess of 250 knots."

"S. Sampson" wrote in message
news:VkCQb.6584$ce2.3669@okepread03...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

It would be waiving a rule that didn't have to be followed anyway.

I see. You're trying to bring logic into a tort arena. Good for you...

As long as Steve remains inside FAA Orders, he has no liability.

Yes, it is a rule here too as we follow the 7110.65 just like in the
U.S. But it is a rule we don't always strickly enforce unless we have
to. I don't like them going that fast, but unless there is a reason
for me to slow them down, I don't usually bother. Now I would never
have one buz an airliner or civilian plane going that fast, but you
get the idea. I'm sure it is different with the FAA boys working in a
busy area, but for us over open water we don't care too much. Our
airspace goes out to 50 miles around Okinawa, so it is 90% over water.

Glenn


On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 21:18:22 GMT, "John R Weiss"
wrote:

"Glenn Westfall" wrote...
I'm an Air Force Air Traffic Controller and am currently working in
Okinawa, Japan. We have F-15's here at Kadena and it is not uncommon
for them to come back well above 400 Kts below 10,000.

How far out over the water does the 250-below-10 limit extend in Japan?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote...

MTRs are established for the sole purpose of military training at airspeeds
greater than 250 KIAS.

According to a couple FAA and USAF sources, that is true for IR and VR routes,
but not SR routes...

From the Montgomery County AFSS web site at
http://www.cxoafss.jccbi.gov/Military.htm, as well as the Buffalo AFSS site at
http://www1.faa.gov/ats/bufafss/flig.../military.htm:

SR (slow speed low altitude routes) - conducted VFR below 1,500 feet at 250
knots or less, without prior notice.

From the Acronym list at http://www.afranges.net/Chapters/appendixes.pdf and
Edwards AFB at http://www.edwards.af.mil/pim/PUBS/t...-1/atch7a.doc:

SR Slow Speed Low Altitude Training Routes

From the Dover AFB Mid-Air Collision Avoidance handbook at
http://public.dover.amc.af.mil/org/w...Printable.pdf:

Only VR routes are depicted on sectional charts. SR and IR Routes are not
shown!

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote...

ATC cannot authorize or require deviation from the 250 KIAS speed limitation
below 10,000 MSL, except within airspace delegated to Houston approach
control, and then only for departing aircraft.

....and the Houston experiment is about to end:


ALPA OPERATIONS BULLETIN 2004-01

SUBJECT: Houston (IAH) High Speed Departure Test Program


BACKGROUND: In December 1997 the FAA began a field test at Houston
Intercontinental Airport (IAH) to determine whether the 250-knot speed
restriction for aircraft operating below 10,000 MSL within Class B airspace
could be increased or eliminated.

Shortly after this test began, ALPA identified to FAA and industry
representatives numerous safety concerns including Class B Airspace excursions,
increased mid-air collision risk, and increased potential for catastrophic bird
strikes. Our concerns were highlighted by the damage sustained by a Delta 727
on departure from IAH on January 9, 1998.

After lengthy discussions and some valid scientific analysis, FAA Flight
Standards, in July 2003, determined that it couldn't quantify the risk presented
by birds. Based on the data from the test, the FAA is unable to design a risk
analysis that will prove the safety of the operation. The well-documented
increase in the wildlife populations of large flocking birds was a determining
factor in this finding.

The FAA has decided to discontinue the test. Once internal FAA coordination is
complete, ATC will no longer be authorized to allow aircraft to exceed 250 KIAS
below 10,000 feet MSL. However, this internal coordination must not delay
pilots from immediately discontinuing participation.

RECOMMENDATION:

Therefore, effective immediately, pilots should not accept an ATC clearance for,
or request ATC authorization to, exceed 250 knots below 10,000 feet in Houston
Class B Airspace.

Contact the ALPA Engineering and Air Safety Department at 800-424-2470 with
questions and comments.

Captain John Cox
Executive Air Safety Chairman

January 16, 2004

"Darkwing Duck" wrote...

So how fast is short final in a F-14 or whatever? Always wanted to know.

125 to 140 knots, depending on airplane and landing weight.

John Gaquin wrote, "... Loaded 747 would climb at about 273. ..."

Makes it all the more amazing that they seem to be standing still while
climbing out!

Bingo, the first fully explained and correct answer. Thanks Darrell.

I'm surprised the Hustler flew so slow low level. I just always assumed
since it was such a hotass machine that it flew faster. We planned/flew the
Bone at 560 KTAS/.8Mach.

For the original poster, the B-1B, for example, flies downwind in the
pattern at 270 KIAS. That's the top of the range (IIRC) given in the "Dash
One" and is what we always flew while I was flying from '86-'97.

Cheers,

JB

"Darrell" wrote in message
news:5vBQb.65145$XD5.52941@fed1read06...
If the "Dash One" manual for the military airplane specifies a speed
higher
than 250 below 10,000' it's OK to fly that fast. In the B-58 Hustler,
after
takeoff we came out of afterburners at 350 KIAS and climbed at 425 KIAS
until reaching Mach .90 for climb speed. That's why other aircraft try
to
stay clear of military climb corridors. We flew low level routes at 435
KIAS except for the high speed portion where we flew at 600 KIAS. (and
that's back in the 1960s)

--

B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

"Tetsuji Rai" wrote in message
s.com...
Airspeed limitation below 10000ft is usually 250kts unless you have been
authorized by the Administrator. However I guess it's a bit slow for
military fighters. So I am curious how fast military fighters fly in
the
real world. I guess it's very dangerous military aircraft fly much
fast
among civilian planes.

"Darkwing Duck" wrote in message
...

"Tetsuji Rai" wrote in message
s.com...
Airspeed limitation below 10000ft is usually 250kts unless you have been
authorized by the Administrator. However I guess it's a bit slow for
military fighters. So I am curious how fast military fighters fly in
the
real world. I guess it's very dangerous military aircraft fly much
fast
among civilian planes.



So how fast is short final in a F-14 or whatever? Always wanted to know.

B-1B final is approx 155 +/- depending on weight.

JB

From: IBM
Date: 1/25/2004 12:51 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

"Jon Woellhaf" wrote in
news:3gHQb.15252$U%5.103167@attbi_s03:

John Gaquin wrote, "... Loaded 747 would climb at about 273. ..."

Makes it all the more amazing that they seem to be standing still while
climbing out!

Back in 1968 my dad took us to Disneyland.
We flew in to LAX and had some time before the bus left for our
hotel.
I wandered along outside the terminal and was watching the aircraft.
Saw a 747 in action for the first time. I figured it was taxiing into
position ... then it rotated. I was no stranger to the antics of
aircraft even as a sub-teen and my first thought was "OH ****"
followed by that horrible sick feeling you get when watching a
disaster unfold.
Much to my amazement, the plane rotated and climbed out normally.
And was I relieved.....
How is it possible to misjudge speed that badly ( 15kts or so vs
approx 150+ )

IBM



It's the size of an aircraft. Have you ever seen a C-5 on final?

The Super Guppies were also deceptive especially further out. All you see is a
white dot slowly getting bigger long before you can see the wings.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired