The ethanol nightmare has arrived!

wrote:
On Apr 9, 11:35?am, wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
M writes:
Remember, ethanol is not mixed into the fuel until the local
distribution terminal, because it can't be transported in pipelines.
Just out of curiosity, why can't it be transported in pipelines?

The same reason it can't be used in existing airplanes; pieces of the
plumbing start leaking.

--
Jim Pennino

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Okay, that is true. However since the days of yore Indy 500 cars have
run on ethanol (or is it methanol!!). Their plumbing does not leak the
alcohol all over the engine all the time. Maybe it would if the race
wasn't over so quickly though ... hmmm.

I have a hard time believing there isn't a technical solution to this
leak problem.

Of course there is, but when most existing stuff was designed to
hold gasoline, no one thought that there would ever be a significant
amount of alcohol in the gas.

It's a problem that could be fixed for new designs. Older planes are
screwed of course.

It depends on what materials were used in the old system and how much
it would cost to replace the parts that need replacing.

In any case, AFAIK, the FAA hasn't signed off on the use of gas with
significant fractions of alcohol in it, so the whole point is moot.

Having said all this I think the entire corn ethanol business is an
extraordinary boondoggle that's screwing the average American.

And the average Mexican with the increased price of tortillas.

The Brazilian's do it with sugar cane / beet sugar. Now, I thought
they were more corrupt than us? Guess not.

Contrary to the popular hype, the Brazilians primarily did a lot of
domestic exploration and greatly increased their domestic oil
production.


--
Jim Pennino

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wrote in message
...
Dan Luke wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:35:05 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:



The total land surface area of the Earth is ~150,000,000 km^2 [3] so the
percentage needed is (drum roll, please!) 100*1,700,000/150,000,000 ~=

1.1%

A tad over 1% of the land surface - a little over three times the area
consumed by water reservoirs and probably much less area than that used
for farming. Another comparison is road surface area. I've seen
estimates that indicate that roads in the U.S. and UK take up ~1% to
1.4% of the surface area of those countries.[4][5] And I haven't even
considered using ocean surface area, more efficient solar conversion,
higher insolation average, or even solar power satellites.

Even at today's low PV efficiencies, there appears to be adequate area
to use solar energy to power human civilization on this planet.


And no one except those unable to understand more than one concept at
a time thinks this is being proposed.

Some P-V, some solar thermal, some geothermal, some wind, some hydro,
some nuke, some algae-diesel; pretty soon we're telling OPEC to go
**** up a rope.

OPEC and oil has little to nothing to do with electricity in North
America.

No. But producing enough power to plug in electric automobiles and making
bio-diesel from algae will have a lot to do with getting off the imported
oil addiction.

Dan Luke wrote:

wrote in message
...
Dan Luke wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:35:05 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:



The total land surface area of the Earth is ~150,000,000 km^2 [3] so the
percentage needed is (drum roll, please!) 100*1,700,000/150,000,000 ~=

1.1%

A tad over 1% of the land surface - a little over three times the area
consumed by water reservoirs and probably much less area than that used
for farming. Another comparison is road surface area. I've seen
estimates that indicate that roads in the U.S. and UK take up ~1% to
1.4% of the surface area of those countries.[4][5] And I haven't even
considered using ocean surface area, more efficient solar conversion,
higher insolation average, or even solar power satellites.

Even at today's low PV efficiencies, there appears to be adequate area
to use solar energy to power human civilization on this planet.


And no one except those unable to understand more than one concept at
a time thinks this is being proposed.

Some P-V, some solar thermal, some geothermal, some wind, some hydro,
some nuke, some algae-diesel; pretty soon we're telling OPEC to go
**** up a rope.

OPEC and oil has little to nothing to do with electricity in North
America.

No. But producing enough power to plug in electric automobiles and making
bio-diesel from algae will have a lot to do with getting off the imported
oil addiction.

The electric automobile will remain insignificant until battery technology
is greatly improved. I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket.

As for bio-diesel from algae, that was said about corn ethenol; we'll
see.

--
Jim Pennino

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wrote

The electric automobile will remain insignificant until battery technology
is greatly improved. I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket.

No basket will hold all the eggs. Diversified energy production/use will be
the key, IMO.

Battery technology is still in the middle of a revolution. Check on what's
coming with nano-tech supercapacitors, too.


As for bio-diesel from algae, that was said about corn ethenol; we'll
see.

Indeed. But the yield/acre for oil algae is far more promising than corn
ethanol, which was never a good idea unless you are a corn farmer.

Dan Luke wrote:

wrote

The electric automobile will remain insignificant until battery technology
is greatly improved. I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket.

No basket will hold all the eggs. Diversified energy production/use will be
the key, IMO.

Battery technology is still in the middle of a revolution. Check on what's
coming with nano-tech supercapacitors, too.

I have; by any way you measure it, supercapacitors have far less energy
capacity then chemical batteries and basic physics says it will allways
be that way.

Also, capacitors make the charging circuitry god awful complex at high
power levels.

As for bio-diesel from algae, that was said about corn ethenol; we'll
see.

Indeed. But the yield/acre for oil algae is far more promising than corn
ethanol, which was never a good idea unless you are a corn farmer.

Avacados give a higher yield/acre then corn.

Unless the intent was to subsidize corn farmers, corn is about the
worst thing one could pick.

--
Jim Pennino

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wrote in message ...

Avacados give a higher yield/acre then corn.

Unless the intent was to subsidize corn farmers, corn is about the
worst thing one could pick.

--
Jim Pennino

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Bio diesel from seaweed...read an article an area the size of Belgium would be sufficient to fuel all aircraft needs....

Dan Luke wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:35:05 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:
Even at today's low PV efficiencies, there appears to be adequate area
to use solar energy to power human civilization on this planet.


And no one except those unable to understand more than one concept at
a time thinks this is being proposed.

Quite.

The whole point of my post was not that, but to point out that the OP's
complaint that solar requires too much surface area to be viable was
without foundation. I simply used the most extreme case (powering all of
human civilization with solar power) to show that even in that edge case
there was more than adequate land area. (I feel I am repeating myself.)

Some P-V, some solar thermal, some geothermal, some wind, some hydro,
some nuke, some algae-diesel; pretty soon we're telling OPEC to go
**** up a rope.

Diversification has its advantages.

(By the way, I could go through the steps to prove that adequate uranium
sources exist to allow nuclear energy to power all of human civilization
for hundreds of thousands of years. The universe, and even just our planet,
is full of energy sources.)

"Blueskies" wrote in
:


wrote in message
...

Avacados give a higher yield/acre then corn.

Unless the intent was to subsidize corn farmers, corn is about the
worst thing one could pick.

--
Jim Pennino

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Bio diesel from seaweed...read an article an area the size of Belgium
would be sufficient to fuel all aircraft needs....


Belgium is pretty small! Also if belgium turned it's lights out once in
a while it'd be a huge start! You can see the place from all over
europe! I've been told it's because it's easier than adjusting the
output on their nukes every night. You'd think they;'d just sell a bit
to France or Germany, though.


Bertie

Blueskies wrote:

wrote in message ...

Avacados give a higher yield/acre then corn.

Unless the intent was to subsidize corn farmers, corn is about the
worst thing one could pick.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.


Bio diesel from seaweed...read an article an area the size of Belgium would be sufficient to fuel all aircraft needs....

Well, that's discouraging since aircraft needs are a drop in the bucket.


--
Jim Pennino

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wrote in message ...
Blueskies wrote:

wrote in message ...

Avacados give a higher yield/acre then corn.

Unless the intent was to subsidize corn farmers, corn is about the
worst thing one could pick.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.


Bio diesel from seaweed...read an article an area the size of Belgium would be sufficient to fuel all aircraft
needs....

Well, that's discouraging since aircraft needs are a drop in the bucket.


--
Jim Pennino

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Maybe, but we can run just about everything else on electricity...