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Israeli Air Force to lose Middle East Air Superiority Capability to the Saudis in the near future
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message ...
BTov wrote: (Jack White) wrote in message . com... The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle East including Israel. so what? Israel has the best pilots and crews in the Middle East, but the Eurofighter Typhoon is such a superior aircraft with INCREDIBLE BVR capability superior to any aircraft in the Middle East that even though Saudis are lazy and spoiled, the Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudis the best Airforce in the Middle East. The only way Israel can gain back Air Superiority over Saudi Arabia would be if Israel were to buy tons of F-22 Raptors. wutever Saudi Arabia has a much bigger GDP than Israel and has Trillions of dollars of Oil Reserves so there's no way Israel can on its own compete with a country like Saudi Arabia in an arms race. & saudis bemoan poor palistanians while their arab whole is giving only 5%.. ;L The only way Israel can gain back air superiority is if US taxpayers will again have to pay BILLIONS of dollars like they always do for Israel, this time for Israel to get FREE F-22 Raptors from the US Taxpayers. it may be interesting to test this eurofighter against arrows.. Arrows are ABMs not SAMs. They are designed to take a Balistic Missile out at Apogee so nothing hits Israel. They are very effective at doing that, 100 percent of the tests with real Balistic Missiles to be interecepted were succesfully hit by the system at the warhead not the main body as the Patriorts did. The Patriot was orginally designed to take out high flying aircraft not missiles. That is why the body of the rocket stage is what got hit by it every time and the warhead then still fell to earth intact about 1/2 the time. The US lost most of the first Gulf War Casualties to a "shot down" SKUD's warhead that hit a building housing a lot of miltiary personel. The Arrow uses a different system of firing a group of shaped charges at the warhead secton of the missile and body both. The real ideal is to force the warhead itself to explode due to the charges going off on it. Hardly cost effective to shoot down a plane. Israel has several other means of taking out incoming aircraft. It has 12 Patriot Batteries, 1000s of SAMs on the ready and then their air to air capabilities and own air to air misiles and guns. They never faced even odds 1 to 1 and no matter what aircraft the enemy flew they shot them all down and lost very few of their planes to it. I pitty any Arab pilot shot down those at home confront, he better speak the words I surrender in perfect Hebrew or he is dead. They common Israeli does not speak the symetic variation called Arabic. It is not their responsibility to know for sure the intention of an enemy that comes down in a parachute in their back yard. Their real responsibility is to shoot first if not Isreali and ask later. In joint flight manuvers the Israeli Pilots in the Israeli built jets went up against US pilots in F116s and though supposedly up against the best of the best they had a "kill" ratio of 5 to 1. For every simulated hit on them they had simulated a hit of five US top pilots flying the most sophisticated fighter made in the world at the time. Arab Air forces run from IAF pilots or they die, that is always been the only choices they had and still will have even 20 years from now. Look, it's obvious that Israeli pilots are the best in the middle east and perhaps the best in the world, but they're NOT as good as you think they are either. I'll give you some examples of why they're not as good as you think they are. In the Yom Kippur War even Syria shot down AT LEAST 36 Israeli Air Force aircraft in a SINGLE DAY. There were 23 SA-6 Sam Batteries in Syria before the start of the Yom Kippur War, and at the END OF THE YOM KIPPUR WAR, the Israeli Air Force was only able to take out 3 of those 23 SA-6 batteries at a great loss of Israeli Aircraft. The IDF GROUND FORCES did take out a few more of those SA-6 batteries, but the Israeli Air Force certainly was NOT up to the challenge of taking on the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War. Here's another example, I've read on several different military sites that there were a dozen or more Pakistani Air Force Pilots who went over to arab countries during the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War to see how well they could do against the Isreli Air Force since they had already racked up great kill ratios against the Indians. They wanted to see "how good they really were" as it were against a great air force like the Israelis. They claim that these Pakistanis shot down at least 10 Israeli air craft in the 6 day war and at least 1 Israeli aircraft in the Yom Kippur war without the Israeli Air Force even shooting down 1 of these Pakistani pilots. It's NOT just the Pakistanis who claim this, even this Indian Air Force historian guy who made this Indian Air Force website claims that. http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/pakpilots.htm Here's the homepage of this Indian site. http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/ This website from New Zealand claims that Pakistani pilots shot down 10 Israeli aircraft in the 6 day war, and at least 1 Israeli aircraft in the Yom Kippur War. http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm Here's the homepage of this site from New Zealand. http://www.scramble.nl/ I also did do a google search to find out what kind of kill ratios Soviet Pilots had against the Israelis when Soviet pilots flew for Arab Air Forces, but I didn't find anything. BTW, as even if Israeli pilots are the best in the world, they still can't be in the same league as the Americans or Europeans because of the number of and the quality of equipment that the Europeans and Americans have. I'd even have to put the Spanish Air Force above the Israeli Air Force when the Spanish get all their Eurofighter Typhoons(they have already got their first batch of Eurofighter Typhoons I understand). No matter how good an Israeli pilot in an F-15I or F-16I would be, he/she just CAN'T compete with an American Pilot in an F-22 Raptor or a European pilot in a Eurofighter Typhoon. The Israelis just don't have stuff even close to as good as the Meteor BVR air to air missile for example. Most of Western Europe will have these missiles on their fighter planes soon. -- MattA ?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00 Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67: http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/ |
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Jack White wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message ... BTov wrote: (Jack White) wrote in message . com... The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle East including Israel. so what? Israel has the best pilots and crews in the Middle East, but the Eurofighter Typhoon is such a superior aircraft with INCREDIBLE BVR capability superior to any aircraft in the Middle East that even though Saudis are lazy and spoiled, the Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudis the best Airforce in the Middle East. The only way Israel can gain back Air Superiority over Saudi Arabia would be if Israel were to buy tons of F-22 Raptors. wutever Saudi Arabia has a much bigger GDP than Israel and has Trillions of dollars of Oil Reserves so there's no way Israel can on its own compete with a country like Saudi Arabia in an arms race. & saudis bemoan poor palistanians while their arab whole is giving only 5%.. ;L The only way Israel can gain back air superiority is if US taxpayers will again have to pay BILLIONS of dollars like they always do for Israel, this time for Israel to get FREE F-22 Raptors from the US Taxpayers. it may be interesting to test this eurofighter against arrows.. Arrows are ABMs not SAMs. They are designed to take a Balistic Missile out at Apogee so nothing hits Israel. They are very effective at doing that, 100 percent of the tests with real Balistic Missiles to be interecepted were succesfully hit by the system at the warhead not the main body as the Patriorts did. The Patriot was orginally designed to take out high flying aircraft not missiles. That is why the body of the rocket stage is what got hit by it every time and the warhead then still fell to earth intact about 1/2 the time. The US lost most of the first Gulf War Casualties to a "shot down" SKUD's warhead that hit a building housing a lot of miltiary personel. The Arrow uses a different system of firing a group of shaped charges at the warhead secton of the missile and body both. The real ideal is to force the warhead itself to explode due to the charges going off on it. Hardly cost effective to shoot down a plane. Israel has several other means of taking out incoming aircraft. It has 12 Patriot Batteries, 1000s of SAMs on the ready and then their air to air capabilities and own air to air misiles and guns. They never faced even odds 1 to 1 and no matter what aircraft the enemy flew they shot them all down and lost very few of their planes to it. I pitty any Arab pilot shot down those at home confront, he better speak the words I surrender in perfect Hebrew or he is dead. They common Israeli does not speak the symetic variation called Arabic. It is not their responsibility to know for sure the intention of an enemy that comes down in a parachute in their back yard. Their real responsibility is to shoot first if not Isreali and ask later. In joint flight manuvers the Israeli Pilots in the Israeli built jets went up against US pilots in F116s and though supposedly up against the best of the best they had a "kill" ratio of 5 to 1. For every simulated hit on them they had simulated a hit of five US top pilots flying the most sophisticated fighter made in the world at the time. Arab Air forces run from IAF pilots or they die, that is always been the only choices they had and still will have even 20 years from now. Look, it's obvious that Israeli pilots are the best in the middle east and perhaps the best in the world, but they're NOT as good as you think they are either. I'll give you some examples of why they're not as good as you think they are. In the Yom Kippur War even Syria shot down AT LEAST 36 Israeli Air Force aircraft in a SINGLE DAY. You are very correct, however do you care to mention the Syian losses that same day? How about that was the only day they had that airforce intact. They lost over 90 percent of their entire airforce and pilots in that huge engagment. The Syrian Airforce was seen heading toward Israel so Israel Scrambled its Norther Fighters that were designated as ready. That is only about 50 percent of them. The US Navy would call them the Alert Aircraft which would be manned and ready if needed. Israelis at that time due to the war, had 1/2 the pilots in the planes ready to be scrambled at a moments notice. Syria had sent their entire Airforce thus outnumbering the Israelis at first contact about 4 to 1. Israel did loose a total of 36 aircraft in that battle but under 30 Syrian Planes limped back to home and not one ever penetrated Israeli Airspace, their real objective. That meant the IAF shot down 12 - 15 planes for every one they lost in that battle. No one rates an airforce facing larger numbers by all aircraft returning safely. That is rediculous. Next you will be saying the US army is a joke because they loose men every day in Iraq still. Get realistic, best never meant no losses and never meant at time high losses, it means what the *final* result is. During the Battle of Britain the RAF one night only could get up five fighters who each shot down over 7 enemy aircraft and all those RAF planes were lost. Who won in the end of the Battle of Britain, not the Luftwaffa that is certain. The RAF won that battle by no matter what getting what they still could in the air and inflicting heavier losses on the Germans than they suffered. ere were 23 SA-6 Sam Batteries in Syria before the start of the Yom Kippur War, and at the END OF THE YOM KIPPUR WAR, the Israeli Air Force was only able to take out 3 of those 23 SA-6 batteries at a great loss of Israeli Aircraft. Yet they used that to learn they went against better in the Egyptian Theater, Syria was a holding action, get it. They were like a thorn not the main target of the IAF, Egypt that had recrossed the Cannal was more a threat. However, the Israelis only targetted a total of SAM Batteries in Syria that their intellegence told them correctly left Damascus open to air-raids and they did send in bombers once near the end of the war and hit the Syrian verison of the Penatgon killing all the leading stradigists of the Syrian Military in one blow. It is not always how many but which ground targets you take out. Egypt posed a larger threat in the early part of the war that is why the number of IAF planes in the Norhtern Command was so low as to not equal the Syrians in number as they had before the war and would have gone one to one with even a higher kill ratio. The Israeli Pilots could not have the luxury of cover of a wingman while setting up their shot, the Syrians could. Had the Command not sent 1/2 the planes from Norther Israel on day one of the war to fight the stronger better positioned enemy, they would have not even lost the numbers that they had. Wingmen stay with their lead, protecting them from being set up for a shot. And if the lead misses they switch off and the wingman takes lead and tries again. Best shot on a Jet in air to air is from the rear or about 20 degrees off straigth on. A wingman's job is to watch for such a set up and break it up if needed. The IDF GROUND FORCES did take out a few more of those SA-6 batteries, but the Israeli Air Force certainly was NOT up to the challenge of taking on the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War. They never tried sir. They took out only enough to open Damascus up for the air attack on the building all the militiary leadership of Syria were at. They then brought down that building that killed every high ranking Officer and all the real experience of how to adjust to conditions during a war. Read some more on the descission making during that war of the Israeli Command. Here is some simple facts on that. 1) Egypt was the primary enemy, and had to be stopped first and formost. 2) Until the War with Egypt was won or in total Israeli Control only a holding action would be fought with Syria. They would do all they could to keep Syrian Forces from over-running the Golan and to keep the large airforce of Syria from attacking Israel Proper. 3) The SAMs were known about and on the Sinai they were the largest threat as the IAF would be most active over that airspace. In Syria until the Egyptian threat was elimanated to the West, was not a large concern. They new the exact posistions of the Syrian Batteries. They knew it would be costly to take each out and decided to only open a single coredor at the time to be able to hit targets of Command Value in Damascus Proper. They took out which meant that the overlap capability for defending Damascus was no longer there on one route. 4) The Egyptians had the Newest SAM batteries that were usually not let out of Russia. They were also manned by Soviet Technitians not Egyptian. The IAF did take heavy casualites on thier first run in with them, but came up with better tactics, Same used by the USA in Vietnam by the A6-Intruders. A plane would electronicallly make itself the most important target and as soon as targeting radar painted them a special missile was fired that locked on to the battery. If the missile got off anyway the plane did a series of manouvers many times taking the SAM (SA-7) back to an Egyptian target and by flying low enough and then lifting in an agagy-4 climb at the last moment the SAM hit what the plane had passed over. They also started using flares and attaching baffles to the engines to hide the heat from the exahaust. Later they were found to have refined it when they took otu SA-9 sites in the Becka Valley only loosing a few drones. It may be of little importance but Israel was going to be on full alert that day. The US "sold them a bill of goods" saying that the Egyptians and Syrians were not going to attack and the SA-7s were mock ups. So Israels only real mistake was to take the word of the Liars in Washington DC and Langley West Va. Here's another example, I've read on several different military sites that there were a dozen or more Pakistani Air Force Pilots who went over to arab countries during the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War to see how well they could do against the Isreli Air Force since they had already racked up great kill ratios against the Indians. They wanted to see "how good they really were" as it were against a great air force like the Israelis. They claim that these Pakistanis shot down at least 10 Israeli air craft in the 6 day war and at least 1 Israeli aircraft in the Yom That would mean they are the only ones that shot down Israeli Aircraft in the 6 day war. LOL. Kippur war without the Israeli Air Force even shooting down 1 of these Pakistani pilots. It's NOT just the Pakistanis who claim this, even this Indian Air Force historian guy who made this Indian Air Force website claims that. SO then they claim since the IAF only lists 11 planes lost, one in a bad landing BTW, that all the planes shot down was by Packestani Pilots. Have some more that I can laugh at. BTW I was in that War, and a relative of mine was a flight section leader and was one of those planes hit but ejected back over Israeli Held positions. He was injured but to good to be kept out so he ended the time in the main Command and Communcations Center. I repeat *only* 10 IAF Combat Planes were lost to Enemy fire and one of those pilots was hit from the ground, not the air on a napalm run against Egyptian Tanks that were part of an Armored Column. I guess that was a Packistani Pilot as well. In the Yom Kippur war, a little bit more believable except what front was he fighting on? Syrian perhaps in that one engagement, after that there were no more air to air fights the Syrian Planes that survived just stood down totally. So unless he was part of that then I doubt it as well. If he was on the Egyptian front and said he shot down a IAF Combat Jet, then what day of the war did he do it. The Egyptians used their airforce only 2 days out of that war. The first day to support their ground assault and the next to last day of the war when the SA-7s got taken out of the picture and Israelis were buring the dead Soviets in unmarked graves so not to cause WWWIII over them having combattants in the war. Nixon would have let loose SAC which he had up the entire war to prevent that from being done. Had Israelis put on a huge show and tell and not held that secret till about 2 years ago, Nixon may have sent some of the bombers or missiles in and bye bye world. IDF simply took the IDs of those Soviets killed in the taking out of the SA-7s and then simply buried them right by the reckage of the once command center for the battery. The IDF had the Egptian Army trapped and the Syrians on the run, their airforce in ruins in both those nations. Again it is not just numbers it is the results. Do you have any ideas of how many American B17 crews died in that bobming campaign, but the mission was accomplished while the Egyptian and Syrians Missions were not the Israeli Missions all ended with the final defeats of both enemies on the field. Had not the US Stepped in and told Israel to let supplies into the trapped Egyptain Forces they would all have died with out a shot fired in another two days. Nothing stood between them and Ciaro and that could have meant Israeli Troops and guns hitting that city and cutting all escape off and putting a gun to Saddam's head and demanding Unconditional Surrender. Israeli Tanks the next day were shelling the outskirts of Damascus. IDF Airborn had taken all the roads leading to any escape for them. The plans accoridng to the Dyan Memoirs was to start dismantiling Damscus moving in for the kill there and to take Ciaro and let the Egyptian Army trapped with no drinking water left to die of thirst. That was the mission and they accomplished it for all intent and purposes. As to Egyptian Pilot losses they IAF shot down killing Saddat's own brother with his entire flight that last day they flew. Again the ratios went skyrocketting since the SAMs were no longer in action. It is the final result that counts not the numbers unless the numbers aproach 100 percent. In every war Israel started with fewer planes and pilots then their enemy, yet in the end they always come out on top. Read some more real history by those that fought there and learn. Pakestani Claims only say the Syrians and Egyptians had no kills at all. LOL. And how did they get thier planes there without the US seeing it and documenting it. LOL again. Just more Mulsim and Indian (they also lie about Israel 1000s of times) lies. http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/pakpilots.htm Here's the homepage of this Indian site. http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/ This website from New Zealand claims that Pakistani pilots shot down 10 Israeli aircraft in the 6 day war, and at least 1 Israeli aircraft in the Yom Kippur War. http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm Here's the homepage of this site from New Zealand. http://www.scramble.nl/ I also did do a google search to find out what kind of kill ratios Soviet Pilots had against the Israelis when Soviet pilots flew for Arab Air Forces, but I didn't find anything. BTW, as even if Israeli pilots are the best in the world, they still can't be in the same league as the Americans or Europeans because of the number of and the quality of equipment that the Europeans and Americans have. I'd even have to put the Spanish Air Force above the Israeli Air Force when the Spanish get all their Eurofighter Typhoons(they have already got their first batch of Eurofighter Typhoons I understand). No matter how good an Israeli pilot in an F-15I or F-16I would be, he/she just CAN'T compete with an American Pilot in an F-22 Raptor or a European pilot in a Eurofighter Typhoon. The Israelis just don't have stuff even close to as good as the Meteor BVR air to air missile for example. Most of Western Europe will have these missiles on their fighter planes soon. -- MattA ?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00 Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67: http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/ -- MattA ?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00 Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67: http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/ |
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"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message ...
Jack White wrote: "Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message ... BTov wrote: (Jack White) wrote in message . com... The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle East including Israel. so what? Israel has the best pilots and crews in the Middle East, but the Eurofighter Typhoon is such a superior aircraft with INCREDIBLE BVR capability superior to any aircraft in the Middle East that even though Saudis are lazy and spoiled, the Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudis the best Airforce in the Middle East. The only way Israel can gain back Air Superiority over Saudi Arabia would be if Israel were to buy tons of F-22 Raptors. wutever Saudi Arabia has a much bigger GDP than Israel and has Trillions of dollars of Oil Reserves so there's no way Israel can on its own compete with a country like Saudi Arabia in an arms race. & saudis bemoan poor palistanians while their arab whole is giving only 5%.. ;L The only way Israel can gain back air superiority is if US taxpayers will again have to pay BILLIONS of dollars like they always do for Israel, this time for Israel to get FREE F-22 Raptors from the US Taxpayers. it may be interesting to test this eurofighter against arrows.. Arrows are ABMs not SAMs. They are designed to take a Balistic Missile out at Apogee so nothing hits Israel. They are very effective at doing that, 100 percent of the tests with real Balistic Missiles to be interecepted were succesfully hit by the system at the warhead not the main body as the Patriorts did. The Patriot was orginally designed to take out high flying aircraft not missiles. That is why the body of the rocket stage is what got hit by it every time and the warhead then still fell to earth intact about 1/2 the time. The US lost most of the first Gulf War Casualties to a "shot down" SKUD's warhead that hit a building housing a lot of miltiary personel. The Arrow uses a different system of firing a group of shaped charges at the warhead secton of the missile and body both. The real ideal is to force the warhead itself to explode due to the charges going off on it. Hardly cost effective to shoot down a plane. Israel has several other means of taking out incoming aircraft. It has 12 Patriot Batteries, 1000s of SAMs on the ready and then their air to air capabilities and own air to air misiles and guns. They never faced even odds 1 to 1 and no matter what aircraft the enemy flew they shot them all down and lost very few of their planes to it. I pitty any Arab pilot shot down those at home confront, he better speak the words I surrender in perfect Hebrew or he is dead. They common Israeli does not speak the symetic variation called Arabic. It is not their responsibility to know for sure the intention of an enemy that comes down in a parachute in their back yard. Their real responsibility is to shoot first if not Isreali and ask later. In joint flight manuvers the Israeli Pilots in the Israeli built jets went up against US pilots in F116s and though supposedly up against the best of the best they had a "kill" ratio of 5 to 1. For every simulated hit on them they had simulated a hit of five US top pilots flying the most sophisticated fighter made in the world at the time. Arab Air forces run from IAF pilots or they die, that is always been the only choices they had and still will have even 20 years from now. Look, it's obvious that Israeli pilots are the best in the middle east and perhaps the best in the world, but they're NOT as good as you think they are either. I'll give you some examples of why they're not as good as you think they are. In the Yom Kippur War even Syria shot down AT LEAST 36 Israeli Air Force aircraft in a SINGLE DAY. You are very correct, however do you care to mention the Syian losses that same day? How about that was the only day they had that airforce intact. They lost over 90 percent of their entire airforce and pilots in that huge engagment. The Syrian Airforce was seen heading toward Israel so Israel Scrambled its Norther Fighters that were designated as ready. That is only about 50 percent of them. The US Navy would call them the Alert Aircraft which would be manned and ready if needed. Israelis at that time due to the war, had 1/2 the pilots in the planes ready to be scrambled at a moments notice. Syria had sent their entire Airforce thus outnumbering the Israelis at first contact about 4 to 1. Israel did loose a total of 36 aircraft in that battle but under 30 Syrian Planes limped back to home and not one ever penetrated Israeli Airspace, their real objective. That meant the IAF shot down 12 - 15 planes for every one they lost in that battle. No one rates an airforce facing larger numbers by all aircraft returning safely. That is rediculous. Next you will be saying the US army is a joke because they loose men every day in Iraq still. Get realistic, best never meant no losses and never meant at time high losses, it means what the *final* result is. During the Battle of Britain the RAF one night only could get up five fighters who each shot down over 7 enemy aircraft and all those RAF planes were lost. Who won in the end of the Battle of Britain, not the Luftwaffa that is certain. The RAF won that battle by no matter what getting what they still could in the air and inflicting heavier losses on the Germans than they suffered. Those are nice stats, but they still don't prove that Israel is as good as you said in your original post. If Israel was as good as you say they are, then why did they lose over 100 aircraft and over 800 tanks in the Yom Kippur War? Israel only had a population of about 3 million back then and was the size of New Jersey or maybe even smaller back then. Over 100 aircraft and over 800 tanks are just too many losses for a country as small as Israel to sustain and still win a war. Israel deserves an ASTERISK for winning the Yom Kippur War. It was Operatinal Nickel Grass(A MASSIVE US resupplying effort to replace destroyed Israeli equipment) that saved Israel's butt and allowed Israel to win the Yom Kippur War That's the whole reason that Sadat made peace with Israel. Sadat proved to himself that Israel was beatable, but he also discovered that EVEN if he did well enough to beat Israel, he would still lose because of Operation Nickel Grass or other similar operations in the future. ere were 23 SA-6 Sam Batteries in Syria before the start of the Yom Kippur War, and at the END OF THE YOM KIPPUR WAR, the Israeli Air Force was only able to take out 3 of those 23 SA-6 batteries at a great loss of Israeli Aircraft. Yet they used that to learn they went against better in the Egyptian Theater, Syria was a holding action, get it. They were like a thorn not the main target of the IAF, Egypt that had recrossed the Cannal was more a threat. However, the Israelis only targetted a total of SAM Batteries in Syria that their intellegence told them correctly left Damascus open to air-raids and they did send in bombers once near the end of the war and hit the Syrian verison of the Penatgon killing all the leading stradigists of the Syrian Military in one blow. It is not always how many but which ground targets you take out. Egypt posed a larger threat in the early part of the war that is why the number of IAF planes in the Norhtern Command was so low as to not equal the Syrians in number as they had before the war and would have gone one to one with even a higher kill ratio. The Israeli Pilots could not have the luxury of cover of a wingman while setting up their shot, the Syrians could. Had the Command not sent 1/2 the planes from Norther Israel on day one of the war to fight the stronger better positioned enemy, they would have not even lost the numbers that they had. Wingmen stay with their lead, protecting them from being set up for a shot. And if the lead misses they switch off and the wingman takes lead and tries again. Best shot on a Jet in air to air is from the rear or about 20 degrees off straigth on. A wingman's job is to watch for such a set up and break it up if needed. The IDF GROUND FORCES did take out a few more of those SA-6 batteries, but the Israeli Air Force certainly was NOT up to the challenge of taking on the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War. They never tried sir. I ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY disagree with that statement. The Israeli Air Force DID TRY and FAIL at trying to take out the SA-6 Sam Batteries, but they suffered GREAT losses and basically decided that the IAF wasn't up to the job of taking out the SA-6 and left that job up to the IDF GROND forces. Out of ALL the weapons systems and aircraft ever used in all the wars Israel has ever been involved in, the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War had the MOST IMPRESSIVE KILL RATIOS against the Israeli Air Force ever achieved. It was NOT till Israel recieved F-15s and F-16 during the 80s that Israel was able to tame the SA-6 in Lebanon, and the SA-6 was OLD technology by then anyway. Israel doesn't have aircraft like B-2s, F-117 Nighthawks, or F-22 Raptors and that's why top of the line SAMs are the Israeli Air Force's Achilles Hell and have probably always been the Israeli Air Force's Achilles Hell. BTW, here's proof that the Israeli Air Force did indeed go after the SA-6 Sam Batteries but did very poorly at dealing with the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...8/phantom2.htm "Egypt entered the war with 106 SAM batteries, while Syria had a further 23. On the morning of Sunday, October 7th, a massive attack was about to be launched against Egyptian air bases but it was called off in view of the desperate situation on the Golan Heights. Under operation "Doogman 5B" (model 5B) the IAF launched dozens of its F-4s and A-4s against the Syrian SAM array on the Heights. Having gone in with insufficient intelligence against a deadly opponent, six Phantoms were lost during that single day. With only a single SAM battery destroyed, October 7th was a resounding defeat and the IAF avoided confronting the Syrian SAMs again. By the end of the war the IAF had destroyed only 3 Syrian batteries, leaving most of the work to IDF ground forces." http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4_41.html On October 7, Phantoms launched an attack against Syrian SAM sites, but the Syrian forces were now equipped with the new Soviet-built SA-6 Gainful mobile surface-to-air missile. Syrian forces were also equipped with ZSU-23 mobile radar-controlled anti-aircraft artillery. The SAM-6/ZSU-23 combination proved deadly. No less than six Phantoms and thirty A-4 Skyhawks were lost in this single day. Very few of their pilots manage to escape by parachute. At one time, the Israelis were losing three out of every five aircraft they were sending over Golan. These losses were clearly unsupportable, and Chief of Staff Elazer was forced to temporarily abandon air strikes over Golan in mid-afternoon. The SA-6 was an unpleasant surprise to the Israelis. Israeli electronic countermeasures had been designed to counter the earlier SA-2 and SA-3 radar-guided missiles that had been encountered by the Americans in Vietnam, but these techniques were useless against the SA-6. Earlier Soviet SAMs had used command guidance throughout the entire flight of the missile, but the SA-6 homed in on CW energy reflected from the illuminated aircraft for the final approach to the target. The Straight Flush radar that guided the SA-6 operated over a much wider bandwidth than did the earlier Soviet radars, and used D-band for illumination and G, H, and I/J-bands for initial acquisition and initial launch guidance. The Straight Flush codename is an apparent reference to the five frequencies used by the system. In the semi-active homing mode, the SA-6's homing head and rearward-facing reference antenna receive CW command signals in the I-band. Beacon signals from the missile are in G and H band. The SA-6 apparently also had an alternative infrared-homing system, but I am not sure if it was actually used. The early part of the SA-6's flight was guided by radar, but the Straight Flush radar operated over a much wider bandwidth than that of the earlier Soviet missiles. The radar ranged over three separate frequencies during search, acquisition, tracking, and guidance. Before the war began, not enough was known about these frequencies or about the ability of the missile to switch between frequencies while in flight to throw off jamming transmissions. The ALR-36 radar warning receiver was of little use in picking up these radar signals, since these emissions were outside the band in which the ALR-36 was designed to operate. Consequently, Israeli aircraft found it very difficult to detect a SA-6 launch, and even more difficult to jam the missile while in flight." Did you read the quote where it said "October 7th was a resounding defeat and the IAF avoided confronting the Syrian SAMs again." The simple truth that the SA-6 scared Israeli pilots during the Yom Kippur War like nothing has scared them before or since. There's no shame in the Israeli Air Force deciding not to take on the SA-6, it was in fact the smart thing to do. The Israeli Air Force kicked the Syrian and Egyptian Airforce's butts in the Yom Kippur War, but the SA-6 kicked the Israeli Airforce's Butt in the Yom Kippur War. They took out only enough to open Damascus up for the air attack on the building all the militiary leadership of Syria were at. They then brought down that building that killed every high ranking Officer and all the real experience of how to adjust to conditions during a war. Read some more on the descission making during that war of the Israeli Command. Here is some simple facts on that. 1) Egypt was the primary enemy, and had to be stopped first and formost. 2) Until the War with Egypt was won or in total Israeli Control only a holding action would be fought with Syria. They would do all they could to keep Syrian Forces from over-running the Golan and to keep the large airforce of Syria from attacking Israel Proper. 3) The SAMs were known about and on the Sinai they were the largest threat as the IAF would be most active over that airspace. In Syria until the Egyptian threat was elimanated to the West, was not a large concern. They new the exact posistions of the Syrian Batteries. They knew it would be costly to take each out and decided to only open a single coredor at the time to be able to hit targets of Command Value in Damascus Proper. They took out which meant that the overlap capability for defending Damascus was no longer there on one route. 4) The Egyptians had the Newest SAM batteries that were usually not let out of Russia. They were also manned by Soviet Technitians not Egyptian. The IAF did take heavy casualites on thier first run in with them, but came up with better tactics, Same used by the USA in Vietnam by the A6-Intruders. A plane would electronicallly make itself the most important target and as soon as targeting radar painted them a special missile was fired that locked on to the battery. If the missile got off anyway the plane did a series of manouvers many times taking the SAM (SA-7) back to an Egyptian target and by flying low enough and then lifting in an agagy-4 climb at the last moment the SAM hit what the plane had passed over. They also started using flares and attaching baffles to the engines to hide the heat from the exahaust. Later they were found to have refined it when they took otu SA-9 sites in the Becka Valley only loosing a few drones. It may be of little importance but Israel was going to be on full alert that day. The US "sold them a bill of goods" saying that the Egyptians and Syrians were not going to attack and the SA-7s were mock ups. So Israels only real mistake was to take the word of the Liars in Washington DC and Langley West Va. Here's another example, I've read on several different military sites that there were a dozen or more Pakistani Air Force Pilots who went over to arab countries during the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War to see how well they could do against the Isreli Air Force since they had already racked up great kill ratios against the Indians. They wanted to see "how good they really were" as it were against a great air force like the Israelis. They claim that these Pakistanis shot down at least 10 Israeli air craft in the 6 day war and at least 1 Israeli aircraft in the Yom That would mean they are the only ones that shot down Israeli Aircraft in the 6 day war. LOL. Kippur war without the Israeli Air Force even shooting down 1 of these Pakistani pilots. It's NOT just the Pakistanis who claim this, even this Indian Air Force historian guy who made this Indian Air Force website claims that. SO then they claim since the IAF only lists 11 planes lost, one in a bad landing BTW, that all the planes shot down was by Packestani Pilots. Have The Israelis claim that Israel lost 10 planes during the 6 day war, I'm sure the arabs claim something else. The truth is probably somewhere in between. I wouldn't say it's written in stone that Israel lost 1o planes during the 6 day war, it could just as easily have been 15 or 20. some more that I can laugh at. BTW I was in that War, and a relative of mine was a flight section leader and was one of those planes hit but ejected back over Israeli Held positions. He was injured but to good to be kept out so he ended the time in the main Command and Communcations Center. I repeat *only* 10 IAF Combat Planes were lost to Enemy fire and one of those pilots was hit from the ground, not the air on a napalm run against Egyptian Tanks that were part of an Armored Column. I guess that was a Packistani Pilot as well. In the Yom Kippur war, a little bit more believable except what front was he fighting on? Syrian perhaps in that one engagement, after that there were no more air to air fights the Syrian Planes that survived just stood down totally. So unless he was part of that then I doubt it as well. Here's a quote from the Indian site that may clear things up for you. These are all "CONFIRMED KILLS" according to the Indian Air Force guy. http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/pakpilots.htm#azam "Saiful Azam is a not heard of much in aircombat. Azam has the unique distinction of having kills against airforces of two different countries. as a young flying officer during the 65 Conflict, Saiful Azam managed to shoot down an IAF Gnat on Sept 18th, a rarity as such the Gnat was seldom lost in Aircombat. his victim Fg Off V Mayadev ejected to become a POW. Azam participated two years later in the Arab Israeli conflict of June 1967. deputed to the Royal Jordanian Air Force, flying Hunters, the RJAF Hunters were flown out to the Iraqi Airbase of H-3 in an attempt to put them out of range of Israeli Air Force. It was here he accomplished a unique feat, flying in a Hawker Hunter as a No.2 His formation intercepted an Israeli formation of Four Vautours and Two Mirage IIIs. One of the Mirage IIIs was flown by Capt. Gideon Dror. Dror shot down Azam's Wingman, but himself fell to Azam's Guns. Dror ejected to be taken POW. Moments later, Azam intercepted the formation of four Vantour Bombers and bought down one of them flown by Capt Golan, who ejected. . Azam had earlier bought down a Super Mystere the previous day over Jordan. Azam , being a Bengali did not fly in the 71 conflict. In the final reckoning Azam ties up with Alam in terms of kills, but his tally has a range of kills including the enviable credit of a Mach 2 Mirage III Fighter." http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm Here's a quote from the New Zealand site about the 6 day war. "The Six-Day War between Israel and a number of Arab countries in 1967. During this conflict the PAF sent personnel to Egypt, Jordan and Syria to support the Arabs in their battle against the Israelis. PAF pilots managed to shoot down ten Israeli aircraft, including Mirages, Mystères and Vautours, without losses on their own side. The PAF pilots operated with Egyptian, Jordanese and Iraqi combat aircraft." Here's a quote from the New Zealand site about the Yom Kippur War. "Yom Kippur War, October 1973 During this war 16 PAF pilots volunteered to leave for the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived Egypt had already agreed on a cease-fire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel so the PAF pilots became instructors there and formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr AB. Later on PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi was honoured by the Syrian government." If he was on the Egyptian front and said he shot down a IAF Combat Jet, then what day of the war did he do it. The Egyptians used their airforce only 2 days out of that war. The first day to support their ground assault and the next to last day of the war when the SA-7s got taken out of the picture and Israelis were buring the dead Soviets in unmarked graves so not to cause WWWIII over them having combattants in the war. Nixon would have let loose SAC which he had up the entire war to prevent that from being done. Had Israelis put on a huge show and tell and not held that secret till about 2 years ago, Nixon may have sent some of the bombers or missiles in and bye bye world. IDF simply took the IDs of those Soviets killed in the taking out of the SA-7s and then simply buried them right by the reckage of the once command center for the battery. The IDF had the Egptian Army trapped and the Syrians on the run, their airforce in ruins in both those nations. Again it is not just numbers it is the results. Do you have any ideas of how many American B17 crews died in that bobming campaign, but the mission was accomplished while the Egyptian and Syrians Missions were not the Israeli Missions all ended with the final defeats of both enemies on the field. Had not the US Stepped in and told Israel to let supplies into the trapped Egyptain Forces they would all have died with out a shot fired in another two days. Nothing stood between them and Ciaro and that could have meant Israeli Troops and guns hitting that city and cutting all escape off and putting a gun to Saddam's head and demanding Unconditional Surrender. Israeli Tanks the next day were shelling the outskirts of Damascus. IDF Airborn had taken all the roads leading to any escape for them. The plans accoridng to the Dyan Memoirs was to start dismantiling Damscus moving in for the kill there and to take Ciaro and let the Egyptian Army trapped with no drinking water left to die of thirst. That was the mission and they accomplished it for all intent and purposes. As to Egyptian Pilot losses they IAF shot down killing Saddat's own brother with his entire flight that last day they flew. Again the ratios went skyrocketting since the SAMs were no longer in action. It is the final result that counts not the numbers unless the numbers aproach 100 percent. In every war Israel started with fewer planes and pilots then their enemy, yet in the end they always come out on top. Read some more real history by those that fought there and learn. Pakestani Claims only say the Syrians and Egyptians had no kills at all. LOL. And how did they get thier planes there without the US seeing it and documenting it. LOL again. Just more Mulsim and Indian (they also lie about Israel 1000s of times) lies. Indians lie about Israel infavor of Pakistanis? That's about the funniest things I've ever heard. It's true that back 50 or 60 years ago the liberal Indian Hindus like Gandhi suppored the Palestinians and Gandhi even opposed to the right to create Israel. That really doesn't matter now though since it's the 21st century. India is Israel's 2nd BEST ally. Indian Hindus are the MOST pro Israel people on earth after Americans. It's pretty far fetched to say that an Indian Hindu who's an Indian Air Force historian or something would make up stuff in favor of Pakistan and against Israel. Look at this Indian guy's website ( http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/ ). It should be obvious that he's a die hard Indian Air Force fan, and he's probably a fan and friend of Israel as well. http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/pakpilots.htm Here's the homepage of this Indian site. http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/ This website from New Zealand claims that Pakistani pilots shot down 10 Israeli aircraft in the 6 day war, and at least 1 Israeli aircraft in the Yom Kippur War. http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm Here's the homepage of this site from New Zealand. http://www.scramble.nl/ I also did do a google search to find out what kind of kill ratios Soviet Pilots had against the Israelis when Soviet pilots flew for Arab Air Forces, but I didn't find anything. BTW, as even if Israeli pilots are the best in the world, they still can't be in the same league as the Americans or Europeans because of the number of and the quality of equipment that the Europeans and Americans have. I'd even have to put the Spanish Air Force above the Israeli Air Force when the Spanish get all their Eurofighter Typhoons(they have already got their first batch of Eurofighter Typhoons I understand). No matter how good an Israeli pilot in an F-15I or F-16I would be, he/she just CAN'T compete with an American Pilot in an F-22 Raptor or a European pilot in a Eurofighter Typhoon. The Israelis just don't have stuff even close to as good as the Meteor BVR air to air missile for example. Most of Western Europe will have these missiles on their fighter planes soon. -- MattA ?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00 Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67: http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/ -- MattA ?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00 Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67: http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/ |
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Jack White wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message ... Jack White wrote: "Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message ... BTov wrote: (Jack White) wrote in message . com... The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle East including Israel. so what? Israel has the best pilots and crews in the Middle East, but the Eurofighter Typhoon is such a superior aircraft with INCREDIBLE BVR capability superior to any aircraft in the Middle East that even though Saudis are lazy and spoiled, the Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudis the best Airforce in the Middle East. The only way Israel can gain back Air Superiority over Saudi Arabia would be if Israel were to buy tons of F-22 Raptors. wutever Saudi Arabia has a much bigger GDP than Israel and has Trillions of dollars of Oil Reserves so there's no way Israel can on its own compete with a country like Saudi Arabia in an arms race. & saudis bemoan poor palistanians while their arab whole is giving only 5%.. ;L The only way Israel can gain back air superiority is if US taxpayers will again have to pay BILLIONS of dollars like they always do for Israel, this time for Israel to get FREE F-22 Raptors from the US Taxpayers. it may be interesting to test this eurofighter against arrows.. Arrows are ABMs not SAMs. They are designed to take a Balistic Missile out at Apogee so nothing hits Israel. They are very effective at doing that, 100 percent of the tests with real Balistic Missiles to be interecepted were succesfully hit by the system at the warhead not the main body as the Patriorts did. The Patriot was orginally designed to take out high flying aircraft not missiles. That is why the body of the rocket stage is what got hit by it every time and the warhead then still fell to earth intact about 1/2 the time. The US lost most of the first Gulf War Casualties to a "shot down" SKUD's warhead that hit a building housing a lot of miltiary personel. The Arrow uses a different system of firing a group of shaped charges at the warhead secton of the missile and body both. The real ideal is to force the warhead itself to explode due to the charges going off on it. Hardly cost effective to shoot down a plane. Israel has several other means of taking out incoming aircraft. It has 12 Patriot Batteries, 1000s of SAMs on the ready and then their air to air capabilities and own air to air misiles and guns. They never faced even odds 1 to 1 and no matter what aircraft the enemy flew they shot them all down and lost very few of their planes to it. I pitty any Arab pilot shot down those at home confront, he better speak the words I surrender in perfect Hebrew or he is dead. They common Israeli does not speak the symetic variation called Arabic. It is not their responsibility to know for sure the intention of an enemy that comes down in a parachute in their back yard. Their real responsibility is to shoot first if not Isreali and ask later. In joint flight manuvers the Israeli Pilots in the Israeli built jets went up against US pilots in F116s and though supposedly up against the best of the best they had a "kill" ratio of 5 to 1. For every simulated hit on them they had simulated a hit of five US top pilots flying the most sophisticated fighter made in the world at the time. Arab Air forces run from IAF pilots or they die, that is always been the only choices they had and still will have even 20 years from now. Look, it's obvious that Israeli pilots are the best in the middle east and perhaps the best in the world, but they're NOT as good as you think they are either. I'll give you some examples of why they're not as good as you think they are. In the Yom Kippur War even Syria shot down AT LEAST 36 Israeli Air Force aircraft in a SINGLE DAY. You are very correct, however do you care to mention the Syian losses that same day? How about that was the only day they had that airforce intact. They lost over 90 percent of their entire airforce and pilots in that huge engagment. The Syrian Airforce was seen heading toward Israel so Israel Scrambled its Norther Fighters that were designated as ready. That is only about 50 percent of them. The US Navy would call them the Alert Aircraft which would be manned and ready if needed. Israelis at that time due to the war, had 1/2 the pilots in the planes ready to be scrambled at a moments notice. Syria had sent their entire Airforce thus outnumbering the Israelis at first contact about 4 to 1. Israel did loose a total of 36 aircraft in that battle but under 30 Syrian Planes limped back to home and not one ever penetrated Israeli Airspace, their real objective. That meant the IAF shot down 12 - 15 planes for every one they lost in that battle. No one rates an airforce facing larger numbers by all aircraft returning safely. That is rediculous. Next you will be saying the US army is a joke because they loose men every day in Iraq still. Get realistic, best never meant no losses and never meant at time high losses, it means what the *final* result is. During the Battle of Britain the RAF one night only could get up five fighters who each shot down over 7 enemy aircraft and all those RAF planes were lost. Who won in the end of the Battle of Britain, not the Luftwaffa that is certain. The RAF won that battle by no matter what getting what they still could in the air and inflicting heavier losses on the Germans than they suffered. Those are nice stats, but they still don't prove that Israel is as good as you said in your original post. If Israel was as good as you say they are, then why did they lose over 100 aircraft and over 800 tanks in the Yom Kippur War? Israel only had a population of about 3 million back then and was the size of New Jersey or maybe even smaller back then. Over 100 aircraft and over 800 tanks are just too many losses for a country as small as Israel to sustain and still win a war. Israel deserves an ASTERISK for winning the Yom Kippur War. It was Operatinal Nickel Grass(A MASSIVE US resupplying effort to replace destroyed Israeli equipment) that saved Israel's butt and allowed Israel to win the Yom Kippur War That's the whole reason that Sadat made peace with Israel. Sadat proved to himself that Israel was beatable, but he also discovered that EVEN if he did well enough to beat Israel, he would still lose because of Operation Nickel Grass or other similar operations in the future. ere were 23 SA-6 Sam Batteries in Syria before the start of the Yom Kippur War, and at the END OF THE YOM KIPPUR WAR, the Israeli Air Force was only able to take out 3 of those 23 SA-6 batteries at a great loss of Israeli Aircraft. Yet they used that to learn they went against better in the Egyptian Theater, Syria was a holding action, get it. They were like a thorn not the main target of the IAF, Egypt that had recrossed the Cannal was more a threat. However, the Israelis only targetted a total of SAM Batteries in Syria that their intellegence told them correctly left Damascus open to air-raids and they did send in bombers once near the end of the war and hit the Syrian verison of the Penatgon killing all the leading stradigists of the Syrian Military in one blow. It is not always how many but which ground targets you take out. Egypt posed a larger threat in the early part of the war that is why the number of IAF planes in the Norhtern Command was so low as to not equal the Syrians in number as they had before the war and would have gone one to one with even a higher kill ratio. The Israeli Pilots could not have the luxury of cover of a wingman while setting up their shot, the Syrians could. Had the Command not sent 1/2 the planes from Norther Israel on day one of the war to fight the stronger better positioned enemy, they would have not even lost the numbers that they had. Wingmen stay with their lead, protecting them from being set up for a shot. And if the lead misses they switch off and the wingman takes lead and tries again. Best shot on a Jet in air to air is from the rear or about 20 degrees off straigth on. A wingman's job is to watch for such a set up and break it up if needed. The IDF GROUND FORCES did take out a few more of those SA-6 batteries, but the Israeli Air Force certainly was NOT up to the challenge of taking on the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War. They never tried sir. I ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY disagree with that statement. The Israeli Air Force DID TRY and FAIL at trying to take out the SA-6 Sam Batteries, but they suffered GREAT losses and basically decided that the IAF wasn't up to the job of taking out the SA-6 and left that job up to the IDF GROND forces. Out of ALL the weapons systems and aircraft ever used in all the wars Israel has ever been involved in, the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War had the MOST IMPRESSIVE KILL RATIOS against the Israeli Air Force ever achieved. It was NOT till Israel recieved F-15s and F-16 during the 80s that Israel was able to tame the SA-6 in Lebanon, and the SA-6 was OLD technology by then anyway. Israel doesn't have aircraft like B-2s, F-117 Nighthawks, or F-22 Raptors and that's why top of the line SAMs are the Israeli Air Force's Achilles Hell and have probably always been the Israeli Air Force's Achilles Hell. BTW, here's proof that the Israeli Air Force did indeed go after the SA-6 Sam Batteries but did very poorly at dealing with the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...8/phantom2.htm "Egypt entered the war with 106 SAM batteries, while Syria had a further 23. On the morning of Sunday, October 7th, a massive attack was about to be launched against Egyptian air bases but it was called off in view of the desperate situation on the Golan Heights. Under operation "Doogman 5B" (model 5B) the IAF launched dozens of its F-4s and A-4s against the Syrian SAM array on the Heights. Having gone in with insufficient intelligence against a deadly opponent, six Phantoms were lost during that single day. With only a single SAM battery destroyed, October 7th was a resounding defeat and the IAF avoided confronting the Syrian SAMs again. By the end of the war the IAF had destroyed only 3 Syrian batteries, leaving most of the work to IDF ground forces." http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4_41.html On October 7, Phantoms launched an attack against Syrian SAM sites, but the Syrian forces were now equipped with the new Soviet-built SA-6 Gainful mobile surface-to-air missile. Syrian forces were also equipped with ZSU-23 mobile radar-controlled anti-aircraft artillery. The SAM-6/ZSU-23 combination proved deadly. No less than six Phantoms and thirty A-4 Skyhawks were lost in this single day. Very few of their pilots manage to escape by parachute. At one time, the Israelis were losing three out of every five aircraft they were sending over Golan. These losses were clearly unsupportable, and Chief of Staff Elazer was forced to temporarily abandon air strikes over Golan in mid-afternoon. The SA-6 was an unpleasant surprise to the Israelis. Israeli electronic countermeasures had been designed to counter the earlier SA-2 and SA-3 radar-guided missiles that had been encountered by the Americans in Vietnam, but these techniques were useless against the SA-6. Earlier Soviet SAMs had used command guidance throughout the entire flight of the missile, but the SA-6 homed in on CW energy reflected from the illuminated aircraft for the final approach to the target. The Straight Flush radar that guided the SA-6 operated over a much wider bandwidth than did the earlier Soviet radars, and used D-band for illumination and G, H, and I/J-bands for initial acquisition and initial launch guidance. The Straight Flush codename is an apparent reference to the five frequencies used by the system. In the semi-active homing mode, the SA-6's homing head and rearward-facing reference antenna receive CW command signals in the I-band. Beacon signals from the missile are in G and H band. The SA-6 apparently also had an alternative infrared-homing system, but I am not sure if it was actually used. The early part of the SA-6's flight was guided by radar, but the Straight Flush radar operated over a much wider bandwidth than that of the earlier Soviet missiles. The radar ranged over three separate frequencies during search, acquisition, tracking, and guidance. Before the war began, not enough was known about these frequencies or about the ability of the missile to switch between frequencies while in flight to throw off jamming transmissions. The ALR-36 radar warning receiver was of little use in picking up these radar signals, since these emissions were outside the band in which the ALR-36 was designed to operate. Consequently, Israeli aircraft found it very difficult to detect a SA-6 launch, and even more difficult to jam the missile while in flight." Did you read the quote where it said "October 7th was a resounding defeat and the IAF avoided confronting the Syrian SAMs again." The simple truth that the SA-6 scared Israeli pilots during the Yom Kippur War like nothing has scared them before or since. There's no shame in the Israeli Air Force deciding not to take on the SA-6, it was in fact the smart thing to do. The Israeli Air Force kicked the Syrian and Egyptian Airforce's butts in the Yom Kippur War, but the SA-6 kicked the Israeli Airforce's Butt in the Yom Kippur War. They took out only enough to open Damascus up for the air attack on the building all the militiary leadership of Syria were at. They then brought down that building that killed every high ranking Officer and all the real experience of how to adjust to conditions during a war. Read some more on the descission making during that war of the Israeli Command. Here is some simple facts on that. 1) Egypt was the primary enemy, and had to be stopped first and formost. 2) Until the War with Egypt was won or in total Israeli Control only a holding action would be fought with Syria. They would do all they could to keep Syrian Forces from over-running the Golan and to keep the large airforce of Syria from attacking Israel Proper. 3) The SAMs were known about and on the Sinai they were the largest threat as the IAF would be most active over that airspace. In Syria until the Egyptian threat was elimanated to the West, was not a large concern. They new the exact posistions of the Syrian Batteries. They knew it would be costly to take each out and decided to only open a single coredor at the time to be able to hit targets of Command Value in Damascus Proper. They took out which meant that the overlap capability for defending Damascus was no longer there on one route. 4) The Egyptians had the Newest SAM batteries that were usually not let out of Russia. They were also manned by Soviet Technitians not Egyptian. The IAF did take heavy casualites on thier first run in with them, but came up with better tactics, Same used by the USA in Vietnam by the A6-Intruders. A plane would electronicallly make itself the most important target and as soon as targeting radar painted them a special missile was fired that locked on to the battery. If the missile got off anyway the plane did a series of manouvers many times taking the SAM (SA-7) back to an Egyptian target and by flying low enough and then lifting in an agagy-4 climb at the last moment the SAM hit what the plane had passed over. They also started using flares and attaching baffles to the engines to hide the heat from the exahaust. Later they were found to have refined it when they took otu SA-9 sites in the Becka Valley only loosing a few drones. It may be of little importance but Israel was going to be on full alert that day. The US "sold them a bill of goods" saying that the Egyptians and Syrians were not going to attack and the SA-7s were mock ups. So Israels only real mistake was to take the word of the Liars in Washington DC and Langley West Va. Here's another example, I've read on several different military sites that there were a dozen or more Pakistani Air Force Pilots who went over to arab countries during the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War to see how well they could do against the Isreli Air Force since they had already racked up great kill ratios against the Indians. They wanted to see "how good they really were" as it were against a great air force like the Israelis. They claim that these Pakistanis shot down at least 10 Israeli air craft in the 6 day war and at least 1 Israeli aircraft in the Yom That would mean they are the only ones that shot down Israeli Aircraft in the 6 day war. LOL. Kippur war without the Israeli Air Force even shooting down 1 of these Pakistani pilots. It's NOT just the Pakistanis who claim this, even this Indian Air Force historian guy who made this Indian Air Force website claims that. SO then they claim since the IAF only lists 11 planes lost, one in a bad landing BTW, that all the planes shot down was by Packestani Pilots. Have The Israelis claim that Israel lost 10 planes during the 6 day war, I'm sure the arabs claim something else. The truth is probably somewhere in between. I wouldn't say it's written in stone that Israel lost 1o planes during the 6 day war, it could just as easily have been 15 or 20. some more that I can laugh at. BTW I was in that War, and a relative of mine was a flight section leader and was one of those planes hit but ejected back over Israeli Held positions. He was injured but to good to be kept out so he ended the time in the main Command and Communcations Center. I repeat *only* 10 IAF Combat Planes were lost to Enemy fire and one of those pilots was hit from the ground, not the air on a napalm run against Egyptian Tanks that were part of an Armored Column. I guess that was a Packistani Pilot as well. In the Yom Kippur war, a little bit more believable except what front was he fighting on? Syrian perhaps in that one engagement, after that there were no more air to air fights the Syrian Planes that survived just stood down totally. So unless he was part of that then I doubt it as well. Here's a quote from the Indian site that may clear things up for you. These are all "CONFIRMED KILLS" according to the Indian Air Force guy. http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/pakpilots.htm#azam "Saiful Azam is a not heard of much in aircombat. Azam has the unique distinction of having kills against airforces of two different countries. as a young flying officer during the 65 Conflict, Saiful Azam managed to shoot down an IAF Gnat on Sept 18th, a rarity as such the Gnat was seldom lost in Aircombat. his victim Fg Off V Mayadev ejected to become a POW. Azam participated two years later in the Arab Israeli conflict of June 1967. deputed to the Royal Jordanian Air Force, flying Hunters, the RJAF Hunters were flown out to the Iraqi Airbase of H-3 in an attempt to put them out of range of Israeli Air Force. It was here he accomplished a unique feat, flying in a Hawker Hunter as a No.2 His formation intercepted an Israeli formation of Four Vautours and Two Mirage IIIs. One of the Mirage IIIs was flown by Capt. Gideon Dror. Dror shot down Azam's Wingman, but himself fell to Azam's Guns. Dror ejected to be taken POW. Moments later, Azam intercepted the formation of four Vantour Bombers and bought down one of them flown by Capt Golan, who ejected. . Azam had earlier bought down a Super Mystere the previous day over Jordan. Azam , being a Bengali did not fly in the 71 conflict. In the final reckoning Azam ties up with Alam in terms of kills, but his tally has a range of kills including the enviable credit of a Mach 2 Mirage III Fighter." http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm Here's a quote from the New Zealand site about the 6 day war. "The Six-Day War between Israel and a number of Arab countries in 1967. During this conflict the PAF sent personnel to Egypt, Jordan and Syria to support the Arabs in their battle against the Israelis. PAF pilots managed to shoot down ten Israeli aircraft, including Mirages, Mystères and Vautours, without losses on their own side. The PAF pilots operated with Egyptian, Jordanese and Iraqi combat aircraft." Here's a quote from the New Zealand site about the Yom Kippur War. "Yom Kippur War, October 1973 During this war 16 PAF pilots volunteered to leave for the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived Egypt had already agreed on a cease-fire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel so the PAF pilots became instructors there and formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr AB. Later on PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi was honoured by the Syrian government." If he was on the Egyptian front and said he shot down a IAF Combat Jet, then what day of the war did he do it. The Egyptians used their airforce only 2 days out of that war. The first day to support their ground assault and the next to last day of the war when the SA-7s got taken out of the picture and Israelis were buring the dead Soviets in unmarked graves so not to cause WWWIII over them having combattants in the war. Nixon would have let loose SAC which he had up the entire war to prevent that from being done. Had Israelis put on a huge show and tell and not held that secret till about 2 years ago, Nixon may have sent some of the bombers or missiles in and bye bye world. IDF simply took the IDs of those Soviets killed in the taking out of the SA-7s and then simply buried them right by the reckage of the once command center for the battery. The IDF had the Egptian Army trapped and the Syrians on the run, their airforce in ruins in both those nations. Again it is not just numbers it is the results. Do you have any ideas of how many American B17 crews died in that bobming campaign, but the mission was accomplished while the Egyptian and Syrians Missions were not the Israeli Missions all ended with the final defeats of both enemies on the field. Had not the US Stepped in and told Israel to let supplies into the trapped Egyptain Forces they would all have died with out a shot fired in another two days. Nothing stood between them and Ciaro and that could have meant Israeli Troops and guns hitting that city and cutting all escape off and putting a gun to Saddam's head and demanding Unconditional Surrender. Israeli Tanks the next day were shelling the outskirts of Damascus. IDF Airborn had taken all the roads leading to any escape for them. The plans accoridng to the Dyan Memoirs was to start dismantiling Damscus moving in for the kill there and to take Ciaro and let the Egyptian Army trapped with no drinking water left to die of thirst. That was the mission and they accomplished it for all intent and purposes. As to Egyptian Pilot losses they IAF shot down killing Saddat's own brother with his entire flight that last day they flew. Again the ratios went skyrocketting since the SAMs were no longer in action. It is the final result that counts not the numbers unless the numbers aproach 100 percent. In every war Israel started with fewer planes and pilots then their enemy, yet in the end they always come out on top. Read some more real history by those that fought there and learn. Pakestani Claims only say the Syrians and Egyptians had no kills at all. LOL. And how did they get thier planes there without the US seeing it and documenting it. LOL again. Just more Mulsim and Indian (they also lie about Israel 1000s of times) lies. Indians lie about Israel infavor of Pakistanis? That's about the funniest things I've ever heard. It's true that back 50 or 60 years ago the liberal Indian Hindus like Gandhi suppored the Palestinians and Gandhi even opposed to the right to create Israel. That really doesn't matter now though since it's the 21st century. India is Israel's 2nd BEST ally. Indian Hindus are the MOST pro Israel people on earth after Americans. It's pretty far fetched to say that an Indian Hindu who's an Indian Air Force historian or something would make up stuff in favor of Pakistan and against Israel. Look at this Indian guy's website ( http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/ ). It should be obvious that he's a die hard Indian Air Force fan, and he's probably a fan and friend of Israel as well. http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/pakpilots.htm Here's the homepage of this Indian site. http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/ This website from New Zealand claims that Pakistani pilots shot down 10 Israeli aircraft in the 6 day war, and at least 1 Israeli aircraft in the Yom Kippur War. http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm Here's the homepage of this site from New Zealand. http://www.scramble.nl/ I also did do a google search to find out what kind of kill ratios Soviet Pilots had against the Israelis when Soviet pilots flew for Arab Air Forces, but I didn't find anything. BTW, as even if Israeli pilots are the best in the world, they still can't be in the same league as the Americans or Europeans because of the number of and the quality of equipment that the Europeans and Americans have. I'd even have to put the Spanish Air Force above the Israeli Air Force when the Spanish get all their Eurofighter Typhoons(they have already got their first batch of Eurofighter Typhoons I understand). No matter how good an Israeli pilot in an F-15I or F-16I would be, he/she just CAN'T compete with an American Pilot in an F-22 Raptor or a European pilot in a Eurofighter Typhoon. The Israelis just don't have stuff even close to as good as the Meteor BVR air to air missile for example. Most of Western Europe will have these missiles on their fighter planes soon. -- MattA ?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00 Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67: http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/ -- MattA ?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00 Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67: http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/ Same reason the US it turns out was loosing 2 - 3 aircraft a day over North Vietnam and sometimes more than that. No nation had faced the newest SAMS yet and that is how they got shot down in the early days of the war. Every time they went up against the enemy Planes it was the enemy that came up the looser. Later they came up tactics that worked against those SAMs that were the cover for the Ground forces and in the end their loses dropped to a lower level and they drove the Egyptian and Syrian Airforces totally from the sky. If they were not that good howcome it was only IAF planes flying by the time of the ceace fire? They took on two airforces each with as many aircraft as Israel had (that means 2 times the numbers) and Egypt had soviet Technitians manning the then latest SA version of SAM Missile Batteries that covered the entire area. Being best is not always about numbers of casualties but more about the who wins the final battles and the war because of the way they fought. The IAF cleared the skies of the enemy air power, took out just enough of the SAM Sites to create openings. They in fact bombed the Port of Alexander the second day of that war. Tell me how long before Doolittle bombed the Japanese after Pearl Harbor? You have blinders on as the you keep repeating to everyone your casualty figures and many here tell you so what? Israeli Pilots for the most part managed to eject. Unlike the Islamic Counter Parts they did their best to bet behind their lines and eject when to severly damaged. Where was that Egyptian Air Force when the Israelis built thier pontoon Bridges accross the Canal and crossed over it with their men and tanks so nicely lined up for the Egyptians. What little was left of them was not flying anymore in reserve to put up one last battle for Ciaro that is where they were, to protect their Saddat and his Ministers. Where were they when the Egyptian Army was being forced with thier backs to the canal (rancid sea water) and boxed in on the other three sides if the IAF was so bad as you want us to falsly think? They stayed out of the sky knowing to fly was to die for them. IAF controlled the skies at that point. Yes they lost 100 planes but not 100 pilots 28 of them were back up again the next day in another aircraft. 32 were hospilalized for common things that happen to many pilots when the eject from thier aircraft, burns, broken arms and legs and the like. Many were in fact taken prisoner but some of them were liberated within an hour by IDF Point units (furthest out units in front of the advancing troops). In all less then 15 percent of the pilots died. Which means they lived to fly again if needed. If I were you I would not look to the past performances of the IDF, but what since then they proved by actions capable of doing. There are very few pilots that flew in the Yom Kippur war that would be used as pilots today. How about that presission raid on the Iraqi Nuclear Facilities within a block of 3 embassies that did not get a scratch. And that was not with "smart bombs" at all that was with Iron Bombs, dumb ones at that. There are at least 100 missions that they flew in the M.E. in the last couple of years. In Lebanon, within the Becka Valley where the syrians put up SAM sites, they took them out without so much as one lost plane. And the weapons they used were 100 percent Israeli made. The planes were US built but the smart drones, the electronics to make the small drone look like a fighter-bomber to radar and the missies they used to destroy the Command Center of the battery was all designed and made in Israel. The US in actuallity is buying dronnes from Israel. Get the idea yet? -- MattA ?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00 Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67: http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/ |
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ROFLOL that's the biggest BS story Ever
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly" R.J. Goldman http://www.usidfvets.com "Jack White" wrote in message om... "Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message ... BTov wrote: (Jack White) wrote in message . com... The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle East including Israel. so what? Israel has the best pilots and crews in the Middle East, but the Eurofighter Typhoon is such a superior aircraft with INCREDIBLE BVR capability superior to any aircraft in the Middle East that even though Saudis are lazy and spoiled, the Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudis the best Airforce in the Middle East. The only way Israel can gain back Air Superiority over Saudi Arabia would be if Israel were to buy tons of F-22 Raptors. wutever Saudi Arabia has a much bigger GDP than Israel and has Trillions of dollars of Oil Reserves so there's no way Israel can on its own compete with a country like Saudi Arabia in an arms race. & saudis bemoan poor palistanians while their arab whole is giving only 5%.. ;L The only way Israel can gain back air superiority is if US taxpayers will again have to pay BILLIONS of dollars like they always do for Israel, this time for Israel to get FREE F-22 Raptors from the US Taxpayers. it may be interesting to test this eurofighter against arrows.. Arrows are ABMs not SAMs. They are designed to take a Balistic Missile out at Apogee so nothing hits Israel. They are very effective at doing that, 100 percent of the tests with real Balistic Missiles to be interecepted were succesfully hit by the system at the warhead not the main body as the Patriorts did. The Patriot was orginally designed to take out high flying aircraft not missiles. That is why the body of the rocket stage is what got hit by it every time and the warhead then still fell to earth intact about 1/2 the time. The US lost most of the first Gulf War Casualties to a "shot down" SKUD's warhead that hit a building housing a lot of miltiary personel. The Arrow uses a different system of firing a group of shaped charges at the warhead secton of the missile and body both. The real ideal is to force the warhead itself to explode due to the charges going off on it. Hardly cost effective to shoot down a plane. Israel has several other means of taking out incoming aircraft. It has 12 Patriot Batteries, 1000s of SAMs on the ready and then their air to air capabilities and own air to air misiles and guns. They never faced even odds 1 to 1 and no matter what aircraft the enemy flew they shot them all down and lost very few of their planes to it. I pitty any Arab pilot shot down those at home confront, he better speak the words I surrender in perfect Hebrew or he is dead. They common Israeli does not speak the symetic variation called Arabic. It is not their responsibility to know for sure the intention of an enemy that comes down in a parachute in their back yard. Their real responsibility is to shoot first if not Isreali and ask later. In joint flight manuvers the Israeli Pilots in the Israeli built jets went up against US pilots in F116s and though supposedly up against the best of the best they had a "kill" ratio of 5 to 1. For every simulated hit on them they had simulated a hit of five US top pilots flying the most sophisticated fighter made in the world at the time. Arab Air forces run from IAF pilots or they die, that is always been the only choices they had and still will have even 20 years from now. Look, it's obvious that Israeli pilots are the best in the middle east and perhaps the best in the world, but they're NOT as good as you think they are either. I'll give you some examples of why they're not as good as you think they are. In the Yom Kippur War even Syria shot down AT LEAST 36 Israeli Air Force aircraft in a SINGLE DAY. There were 23 SA-6 Sam Batteries in Syria before the start of the Yom Kippur War, and at the END OF THE YOM KIPPUR WAR, the Israeli Air Force was only able to take out 3 of those 23 SA-6 batteries at a great loss of Israeli Aircraft. The IDF GROUND FORCES did take out a few more of those SA-6 batteries, but the Israeli Air Force certainly was NOT up to the challenge of taking on the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War. Here's another example, I've read on several different military sites that there were a dozen or more Pakistani Air Force Pilots who went over to arab countries during the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War to see how well they could do against the Isreli Air Force since they had already racked up great kill ratios against the Indians. They wanted to see "how good they really were" as it were against a great air force like the Israelis. They claim that these Pakistanis shot down at least 10 Israeli air craft in the 6 day war and at least 1 Israeli aircraft in the Yom Kippur war without the Israeli Air Force even shooting down 1 of these Pakistani pilots. It's NOT just the Pakistanis who claim this, even this Indian Air Force historian guy who made this Indian Air Force website claims that. http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/pakpilots.htm Here's the homepage of this Indian site. http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/ This website from New Zealand claims that Pakistani pilots shot down 10 Israeli aircraft in the 6 day war, and at least 1 Israeli aircraft in the Yom Kippur War. http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm Here's the homepage of this site from New Zealand. http://www.scramble.nl/ I also did do a google search to find out what kind of kill ratios Soviet Pilots had against the Israelis when Soviet pilots flew for Arab Air Forces, but I didn't find anything. BTW, as even if Israeli pilots are the best in the world, they still can't be in the same league as the Americans or Europeans because of the number of and the quality of equipment that the Europeans and Americans have. I'd even have to put the Spanish Air Force above the Israeli Air Force when the Spanish get all their Eurofighter Typhoons(they have already got their first batch of Eurofighter Typhoons I understand). No matter how good an Israeli pilot in an F-15I or F-16I would be, he/she just CAN'T compete with an American Pilot in an F-22 Raptor or a European pilot in a Eurofighter Typhoon. The Israelis just don't have stuff even close to as good as the Meteor BVR air to air missile for example. Most of Western Europe will have these missiles on their fighter planes soon. -- MattA ?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00 Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67: http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/ |
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"Richard Cranium" wrote in message
When the reply posting is far more interesting than the original post, top posting is not only acceptable, it is preferable. Wrong. Do a google search sometime and find out just how "acceptable" top-posting is. That's why some newsreaders automatically place the response at the top of the thread. Wrong again. No newsreader automatically places the response at the top of the "thread". I think you meant "message". Newsreader software puts the reply where *you* type it, sparky. If you'd move your flabtabulous arm just a bit and mash your flipper on the mouse button you'd get the cursor below the quoted text and then your replies would be un****ed. But I doubt if you'll do that. You're too busy mailing 205 friends a "VIRUS ALERT!!!111oneone" warning that you were forwarded from Bill Gates himself! (I mean it must be true - it says "Bill Gates" in the "FROM" line!) HTH HAND KTHXBYE. -- http://www.delversdungeon.dragonsfoot.org Remove the X's in my email address to respond. "Damn you Silvey, and your endless fortunes." - Stephen Weir I hate furries. |
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Sorry Silvey. THIS is where the cursor appears in Agent when a
message is opened for reply. As for the rest of your response, please understand that my post was meant to be ironic. And you are correct . .. . I did mean "message". I don't understand your reference to "mailing 205 friends, etc.", unless you're just being a bit of a dip****. In that case, YOU can un**** this message by copying and pasting this paragraph to the location of your choice. On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:56:43 GMT, "Bill Silvey" wrote: "Richard Cranium" wrote in message When the reply posting is far more interesting than the original post, top posting is not only acceptable, it is preferable. Wrong. Do a google search sometime and find out just how "acceptable" top-posting is. That's why some newsreaders automatically place the response at the top of the thread. Wrong again. No newsreader automatically places the response at the top of the "thread". I think you meant "message". Newsreader software puts the reply where *you* type it, sparky. If you'd move your flabtabulous arm just a bit and mash your flipper on the mouse button you'd get the cursor below the quoted text and then your replies would be un****ed. But I doubt if you'll do that. You're too busy mailing 205 friends a "VIRUS ALERT!!!111oneone" warning that you were forwarded from Bill Gates himself! (I mean it must be true - it says "Bill Gates" in the "FROM" line!) HTH HAND KTHXBYE. -- http://www.delversdungeon.dragonsfoot.org Remove the X's in my email address to respond. "Damn you Silvey, and your endless fortunes." - Stephen Weir I hate furries. |
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Richard Cranium wrote:
When the reply posting is far more interesting than the original post, top posting is not only acceptable, it is preferable. That's why some newsreaders automatically place the response at the top of the thread. It makes it considerably more difficult to follow a thread. The only thing proper bottom posting requires is trimming quotations to one or two paragraphs max. Then you have an excellent, quite readable post. Most top posters just reply to the comment and don't bother to trim anything off the bottom. They add a tremendous amount of unnecessary bandwidth to any newsgroup. I prefer that I be able to read both the reference and the reply without having to scroll excessively. I don't see that as too much to want. -- Mortimer Schnerd, RN http://www.mortimerschnerd.com |
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