Turn coordinator? How dare they!

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 2:10:40 PM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
On Saturday, February 23, 2013 3:04:16 PM UTC-6, Terence Wilson wrote:

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 7:00:22 AM UTC-8, kirk.stant wrote:



On Saturday, February 23, 2013 1:47:27 PM UTC+1, Sean F (F2) wrote:







IFR rated glider ;-). Lol.















There is an FAA designated examiner and Customs P-3 pilot down in Florida who has an IFR equipped (not rated, whatever that is) Nimbus 3. I delivered it to him in Houston from Phoenix several years ago. He cloud climbs legally with it, with a clearance.















Sean, just because YOU don't do it, doesn't mean others don't.















Cheers,















Kirk







66







I'm aware that there are a handful of gliders out there flying IFR, but I'm curious how they comply with the FARs, for example, the requirement to have an alternator/generator. Is there an exemption granted from the FSDO or do these guys just skirt the rules?



those rules apply to airplanes not gliders. gliders that are approved for instrument flight or "cloud flying" have a list of required instruments for instrument flight in their manuals or on their type certificates.

Long ago the FAA changed from writing blanket rules to making Approved Flight Manuals part of an aircraft's airworthiness certification documentation thus avoiding the need for an endless list of exceptions and waivers. Then they wrote 91.9 requiring everyone to operate in compliance with AFM's. Read your manual! It has just as much legal force as the FAR's.

Not sure where this is going.

The fact is that all contest gliders are NOT IFR LEGAL. So making other rules on this point and going to lengths to ban AHs is unnecessary. The rule is clear as is the law.

Sean

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 11:10:40 PM UTC+2, Tony wrote:
On Saturday, February 23, 2013 3:04:16 PM UTC-6, Terence Wilson wrote:

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 7:00:22 AM UTC-8, kirk.stant wrote:



On Saturday, February 23, 2013 1:47:27 PM UTC+1, Sean F (F2) wrote:







IFR rated glider ;-). Lol.















There is an FAA designated examiner and Customs P-3 pilot down in Florida who has an IFR equipped (not rated, whatever that is) Nimbus 3. I delivered it to him in Houston from Phoenix several years ago. He cloud climbs legally with it, with a clearance.















Sean, just because YOU don't do it, doesn't mean others don't.















Cheers,















Kirk







66







I'm aware that there are a handful of gliders out there flying IFR, but I'm curious how they comply with the FARs, for example, the requirement to have an alternator/generator. Is there an exemption granted from the FSDO or do these guys just skirt the rules?



those rules apply to airplanes not gliders. gliders that are approved for instrument flight or "cloud flying" have a list of required instruments for instrument flight in their manuals or on their type certificates.

"Cloud flying" is little bit different than "instrument flying". IFR airplanes need a capability to navigate enroute and approach airfield in instrument conditions. Cloud flying glider is operating in VFR conditions, so there is no need for navigational equipment. That's why equipment requirements for cloud flying (essentially turn&bank and 10m/s vario in most European countries that allow cloud flying) are pretty modest compared to real instrument flying gear.

I encourage everyone to cloud flying (legally of course, with proper training and equipment). It is most difficult, exciting and fun thing you can do in glider.

On Sunday, February 24, 2013 3:56:45 AM UTC-5, rk wrote:
It is most difficult, exciting and fun thing you can do in glider.

So if a US pilot wanted to experience cloud flying in a glider, could he go to England and get some instruction? Do the English thermal up through clouds on a typical blue_sky_and_CU_day, or do they reserve the cloud flying for unexpected weather and emergencies?

And do I understand correctly that the only legal way to fly in clouds in the USA is 1)in an unanticipated emergency (getting caught above deck when flying wave) in which case no IFR rating is required and it can be accomplished with a turn and bank indicator and basic instruments, or 2)with an IFR rating and in a glider fully equipped for IFR flying (landings and navigation included)?

It seems a little out of touch with reality that gliders frequently put themselves in the position where they might need to descend through clouds and yet they typically do not have the training or carry the instruments to handle that situation. Is this because the FAR were written before it was common for gliders to fly in wave? If we brought this anomaly to the attention of the FAA, are we afraid that they will outlaw wave flying?

It seems a little out of touch with reality that gliders frequently put themselves in the position where they might need to descend through clouds and yet they typically do not have the training or carry the instruments to handle that situation. Is this because the FAR were written before it was common for gliders to fly in wave? If we brought this anomaly to the attention of the FAA, are we afraid that they will outlaw wave flying?

US gliders do not frequently put themselves in a position where they might need to descend through clouds! The first lesson you learn when wave flying is absolutely not to let this happen, just like "don't fly into thunderstorms" in the flatlands. And if you do it, properly, calling ATC and telling them you have an emergency, expect a long debriefing when you land.

John Cochrane

On Sunday, February 24, 2013 5:06:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:

US gliders do not frequently put themselves in a position where they might need to descend through clouds! The first lesson you learn when wave flying is absolutely not to let this happen.

How does a pilot gain the power to "absolutely not let this happen"? Knowledge and experience do not control the weather.

And of course it all depends on how you define the word "frequently". I've heard pilots recall the blue hole closing up and then "luckily" reopening somewhere else within reach. My impression is that every time people fly wave on the east coast, it is a roll of the dice whether they will get stuck above the cloud deck. Maybe it works out most of the time, but wave flying pilots put themselves in the position where they "might" have to descend through clouds. I have no idea how frequently that happens. But it certainly happens. I've flown in wave. I've not been caught above deck. Good luck so far I guess.

The other FAR conflict I notices with wave flying is that that pilots routinely violate the stipulated horizontal offset from the rotor cloud. Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and pilots (with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is a non-zero possibility?

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 13:42:29 -0800, son_of_flubber wrote:

On Sunday, February 24, 2013 3:56:45 AM UTC-5, rk wrote:
It is most difficult, exciting and fun thing you can do in glider.

So if a US pilot wanted to experience cloud flying in a glider, could he
go to England and get some instruction?

I don't see why not.

Do the English thermal up
through clouds on a typical blue_sky_and_CU_day, or do they reserve the
cloud flying for unexpected weather and emergencies?

A number of pilots in my club do just that. We currently have no specific
cloud flying qualifying just as we don't have a glider pilot license.
Actually there is a British Glider Pilots License but it has no validity
inside the UK, because all glider flying is club based and under the
control of the instructorate. The BGPL is for use over seas: a few years
back I rocked up on the Wasserkuppe, showed my BGPL and medical to the
nice lady at the flight school and got sent out to take a check ride in
an ASK-21 and get briefed on the site. After that I got sent off in an
ASK-23.

But I digress. We're currently preparing for the switch over to the EASA
licensing regime and there will be a cloud flying qualification but it
will be simpler than the power IFR rating because, from the nature of
gliding, it will only be exercised on VMC days and typically with the
cloud base well above ground level.

Anyway, I was talking to one of our instructors about this last week and
he was telling me what he expects the qualification will involve. He
mentioned procedural timed turns onto heading and, when I queried the
need for this he explained that he routinely checks the direction of a
cloud street before entering cloud with the intention of continuing to
climb while flying along the street.

Its quite normal, on a good day, to hear reports of gliders entering
cloud on the radio.

And do I understand correctly that the only legal way to fly in clouds
in the USA is 1)in an unanticipated emergency (getting caught above deck
when flying wave) in which case no IFR rating is required and it can be
accomplished with a turn and bank indicator and basic instruments, or
2)with an IFR rating and in a glider fully equipped for IFR flying
(landings and navigation included)?

Thats interesting: I have a copy of "Once Upon A Thermal" (great book,
BTW), in which Dick Wolters wrote a long chapter about wave flying in New
England which involved in-cloud descents. Were they being naughty boys or
were things different then? IIRC he had a basic blind flying panel in his
Libelle. So have I.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sunday, February 24, 2013 6:35:39 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
We're currently preparing for the switch over to the EASA
licensing regime and there will be a cloud flying qualification but it
will be simpler than the power IFR rating because, from the nature of
gliding, it will only be exercised on VMC days and typically with the
cloud base well above ground level.

That seems rather sensible. I would like to see something similar in the USA because we have similar clouds over here.


And do I understand correctly that the only legal way to fly in clouds

in the USA...

Thats interesting:

This is purely speculative on my part, not a statement of facts.

I have a copy of "Once Upon A Thermal" (great book,
BTW), in which Dick Wolters wrote a long chapter about wave flying in New
England which involved in-cloud descents. Were they being naughty boys or
were things different then?

All I know is that wave flying conditions are still rather dynamic and rapidly changeable in New England.

On 2/24/2013 3:58 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Sunday, February 24, 2013 5:06:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:

US gliders do not frequently put themselves in a position where they
might need to descend through clouds! The first lesson you learn when
wave flying is absolutely not to let this happen.

How does a pilot gain the power to "absolutely not let this happen"?
Knowledge and experience do not control the weather.

And of course it all depends on how you define the word "frequently". I've
heard pilots recall the blue hole closing up and then "luckily" reopening
somewhere else within reach. My impression is that every time people fly
wave on the east coast, it is a roll of the dice whether they will get
stuck above the cloud deck...
Snipperoo...

FWIW, I took my training in Cumberland, MD, in the early '70's, at which point
& location my wave education began...regrettably (or perhaps luckily!) without
my gaining any first-hand wave experience there. That didn't happen until I'd
moved to Colorado...where in the 3 decades since I have trouble recalling ANY
"solidly overcast" waves.

I've no doubt they occur here, but either the frequency of occurrence is so
infrequent or "something else" applies (e.g. those wavish, solid cloud decks I
can recall have always had bases well above the rocks; moisture also arrives
quite slowly in these parts). In any event, out here, "my eastern concern"
about getting caught atop a solid cloud deck while wave flying quickly went
into the dustbin of history...whereas it very definitely *was* (and would be
if I flew wave there) a concern of mine "back east."

IOW, my sense remains your sense of "eastern cloud deck" wave possibilities is
quite prudent...

Bob W.

On Sunday, February 24, 2013 6:51:56 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

All I know is that wave flying conditions are still rather dynamic and rapidly changeable in New England.

Yes, they are. There are procedures for dealing with this safely. It starts with review of forecast soundings in the morning and doesn't really end until the last ship is on the ground.

At 18K or higher, it's easy to tell when conditions are changing. You can see moisture coming from tens of miles away upwind.

Stories of guys getting caught on top generally involve willful flying at altitude with 80% or more cloud cover below. If you descend when it looks like 80% ten miles upwind and is still less than 80% below, you'll never get caught on top. Like everything else in aviation, safety is very much about setting sensible limits and sticking to them

As far as Old Dog's war stories, well, they did a lot of dumb stuff back when, particularly w.r.t. oxygen (or lack of) but I never heard of intentional descents in cloud. Given the terrain around Mt Wash, this is beyond crazy without GPS.

Evan Ludeman / T8