At last, the truth...

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:54:30 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

snipped...

I don't know. But I guess if a pilot is able to "give up" flying *without*
some sort of a life-changing scary experience, then, perhaps, they were
never really that hooked on it in the first place? This is another concept
I cannot understand -- how can someone fly without becoming hooked on the
magic of flight? -- so perhaps I'll never be able to fathom these folks.

Flying is *not* golf, nor boating, nor motorcycling, nor anything else.
Quite simply, there is nothing else like it; so quitting -- for me --
someday, is going to be ugly, and entirely involuntary.

To simply relinquish the ability to fly of my own free will is unthinkable,
and -- since it's hard to B.S. a B.S.-er -- I always search for deeper
reasons when someone tells me they quit flying because of "the wife" or "the
job".

Jay, the magic of flight is a very real thing for you (and me, and
most of the participants of this newsgroup). It is not, however, an
absolute truth that transcends all mankind. There are many good
honest folks who's "magic" is found in golf, boating, motorcycling and
scuba diving (which adds the third dimension). Who are we to impose
our "magic" on their lives? Don't get me wrong. I understand your
feelings toward flight. I wanted to fly all of my life but didn't
achieve that goal until I was 50. I golfed, but I quit. The "magic"
wasn't there for me. I ride a motorcycle 10K miles annually, and I
love it. But not as much as flying. Nothing approaches flying... for
me. That being said, I have many friends who will never get an
airplane with me and that's OK. They have other fulfilling activities
in their lives, some of which I have no interest in doing.

I agree that we should do everything that we can to nurture interest
in aviation where ever we find it. To assume that something is wrong
with someone because they don't feel the same way about flying as you
do, and choose not to continue, is not fair to that person.
Rich Russell

Jay Honeck wrote:
There's no mystery to me as to why not everyone loves aviation like we do
(or why some people love golf like I don't!).


Right. But these "near-pilots" DID love aviation like we do -- and
something spooked them to the point where they walked away.

I used to play golf several times a week, had my handicap down to 5.
Then I lost interest so I quit. I played twice this summer. I have a
ham radio license, the highest one you can get, the extra class. I got
the first one in 1985. By summer 1988 I had worked nearly 190 countries
with a pretty modest setup at my folks house. Then I got married and I
pretty much haven't turned a radio on since and really don't miss it.
Although I just ordered up the new Vertex handheld that is an aviation
Nav/Comm and a 2 meter ham transceiver. I do have a 2 meter radio at my
computer here with an antenna up on the roof but I mostly set it up
because it has the aviation band on it. I occasionally plug in the
handheld and BS with some flying buddies on 122.75. I don't forsee
losing interest in flying but you never know. I sure would like a cabin
on a lake.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:qudMe.253023$x96.6077@attbi_s72...
Which begs the question: How can you be married to someone with whom you
can't share the passion for flight?

Because if you marry the right person, you don't HAVE to have similar
interests to get along. One reason I love my wife so much is that she
supports my love of flying despite the fact that it's not her "thing".

Also, there are marriages where guys relish activities that don't include
the wife or family. It is their territory and a place to escape to. Golf
comes to mind...Did you ever see the episode of "Everybody Loves Raymond"
where Deborah wants to do more things with Ray? "We don't do anything
together", she would say. So she suggested that she take up golf so that
they could play together. Ray was too scared to tell her the truth, that
this was his "territorial escape", so he went along with it. They are at
each other's throats when they reach the clubhouse. It's hilarious!

I have to say that I have really enjoyed reading this thread. In another
thread I expressed my ambivalence toward aviation because of how it doesn't
seem to be as family friendly as other pursuits. I have been struggling with
this tug between my family and flying and it has been good to hear others
expressing similar struggles with flying.

Flying is a complex, demanding, expensive avocation. As such, it's bound to
have severe attrition due to these factors. My personal account: I am now
just getting back into flying after about a 6 month hiatus. My father died
in March and I am the executor of his will. Flying was not the thing to be
doing during this time. I am just getting to the point where it has appeal
again because while I was grieving and settling family issues and talking
with lawyers and digging through the house that my parents built and arguing
with my brother and grieving some more, the thought of doing something
demanding to relax didn't seem right.

People's lives will change and sometimes aviation doesn't fit anymore. It
can be sad for us pilots to watch this happen from the outside, but we have
to remember that it's THEIR decision and it's best for THEM. Who are we to
judge their feelings about aviation and their reasons for giving it up?
There are times when being judgemental is required, but in my opinion, this
isn't one of them.

I have a friend who got severely lost during a cross country during his
training. Scared him to death and he quit once he got back on the ground. He
emails me pictures of planes all the time. He goes to air shows more than I
do. For him, aviation is very interesting, but not something he wants to DO.
He is the exception I would guess, the person who left flying for one,
singular reason. I suspect that for most folks, aviation dies a slow death,
suffocated by outside circumstances.

How to keep people in the fold? Get to 'em early. Take kids flying if they
want to. Let kids get into the cockpit and make noises. I think that there
is a aura around lots of airports that keeps people away, especially the
young ones. We need to be casual and accomodating about our flying so that
it's not so threatening or unapproachable.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

Jose wrote:

The world could do a lot worse than to "live lives just like mine"...

... but they would have to "be just like you" in order to enjoy "lives
just like yours".

Well, yes and no.

I've read enough of Jay's writing to know that he and I are quite different,
and that we see a great deal of the world in quite distinct ways.

But I too was smitten by flight after being married for a number of years.
And sharing our passions is just something my wife and I do. So she
started lessons too, ceased only because of pregnancy. Now that that's
done, she'll shortly be back.

And even absent her own certificate, she loves flying with me (esp. if we're
doing something fun like lunching in Nantucket or walking on the beach in
Cape May or Ocean City ... ). And we're already talking about a "flying
vacation" when the youngest is sufficiently old.

Like Jay and his wife, we work together and work a fair number of hours
(esp. now, since we were down an employee for a few months and are only
just recovering).

So one doesn't need to be "just like" Jay to live a life like that. One
merely needs to set up a life, and a life partner, that works like that.

- Andrew

Jay Honeck wrote:
Which begs the question: How can you be married to someone with whom you
can't share the passion for flight?

Opposites attract, perhaps... Grace recognizes the fact that I'm an
adrenaline junkie and is willing to indulge me in it as long as she
doesn't have to participate... Thus, my 4-seat aircraft usually has 3
seats unoccupied... Oh well, at least that means I don't have to stop
ever hour to two because of certain passengers who have bladder
capacities of a thimble... All in all, our relationship is definitely
not the Ozzie & Harriet type of one... The things that she likes to do,
I hate... The things that I like to do, she hates... I think that since
she couldn't find "Mr. Right", she decided to settle for "Mr. He'll
Do"...

Dan Luke wrote:

TheÂ*don'tÂ*likeÂ*theÂ*noise,Â*

My wife used to play in a rock band.

theyÂ*don't
like the cramped quarters,

My wife is small.

they don't like wearing headsets,

My wife has a comfortable headset.

they don't
like all the tech-y stuff,

My wife has an MS in computer science.

and they resent the large bite it takes out
of discretionary funds.Â*Â*

My wife also has a degree from Wharton, so spending money isn't scary.

MostÂ*ofÂ*all,Â*itÂ*frightensÂ*them:Â*theyÂ*unders tand
that it is dangerous, and, since any personal gratification they get
from their partner's flying is minimal,

My wife likes to travel quickly.

their enthusiasm for it is
understandably nil.

Your situation is extremely unusual, Jay.Â*Â*YouÂ*knowÂ*this,Â*ofÂ*course,Â*so
one might almost think you are simply bragging.

Thanks for the opportunity grin.

BTW, a fair number of women attend our MAPA meetings. Most are "in"
aviation in one way or another (ie. FBO owner, pilot, instructor, etc.). I
recall a presentation with one husband/wife pilot duo describing some
interesting mechanical problems they'd experienced, and a woman pilot
describing her flight across the US (with some incredible photographs).

Another presentation was a woman describing how to carry non-pilot
passengers. She'd started as a non-pilot passenger (with some pilot
friend), and ended up a CFI. I only wish she'd spent less time on how to
make passengers comfortable and more on how to hook them on flying grin.

It's a small sample, true, but I'd not go so far as to say that "wives don't
like flying". If nothing else, we should be asking what the husbands think
of their aviating spouses.

- Andrew

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:06:28 -0700, unicate wrote
in ::

not everyone who begins flight training *should* see it through.

Right. As a percentage, how many would you guess fall into that
category?

"Trent Moorehead" wrote:
Flying is a complex, demanding, expensive avocation. As such, it's bound to
have severe attrition due to these factors. My personal account: I am now
just getting back into flying after about a 6 month hiatus. My father died
in March and I am the executor of his will. Flying was not the thing to be
doing during this time. I am just getting to the point where it has appeal
again because while I was grieving and settling family issues and talking
with lawyers and digging through the house that my parents built and arguing
with my brother and grieving some more, the thought of doing something
demanding to relax didn't seem right.

Interesting, because that's the exact reason why I *continued* flight
training!

I lost my mother, who I was VERY close to. Just before she died, she
said: "You'll never look back and regret having spent time on your loved
ones; don't get to where I am and regret NOT having spent time on
YOURSELF!" (a regret she had). That was the inspiration for me to take
the demo ride. All the things you listed -- grieving, settling family
issues, talking with lawyers, then losing my father as well and digging
through, cleaning, separating, fighting over, giving away, selling
their things (what a heartbreaking task is that??), arguing with family,
and grieving some more -- brought me down so low that there was NO
escaping it EXCEPT if I went flying! Because it *is* so demanding, there
was no room for any of that other monumentally depressing stuff to creep
in ... so, demanding as it was, it was relaxing and exhilarating
compared to the alternative. For me, the flying is what got me through
that horrible time.

wrote in message
...
Interesting, because that's the exact reason why I *continued* flight
training!

I lost my mother, who I was VERY close to. Just before she died, she
said: "You'll never look back and regret having spent time on your loved
ones; don't get to where I am and regret NOT having spent time on
YOURSELF!" (a regret she had). That was the inspiration for me to take
the demo ride. All the things you listed -- grieving, settling family
issues, talking with lawyers, then losing my father as well and digging
through, cleaning, separating, fighting over, giving away, selling
their things (what a heartbreaking task is that??), arguing with family,
and grieving some more -- brought me down so low that there was NO
escaping it EXCEPT if I went flying! Because it *is* so demanding, there
was no room for any of that other monumentally depressing stuff to creep
in ... so, demanding as it was, it was relaxing and exhilarating
compared to the alternative. For me, the flying is what got me through
that horrible time.

I also belong to the "lost both parents club". Sorry for your loss.

I have learned that people grieve in different ways and it's all good. It
only gets bad when people neglect to do so.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:HGkMe.253868$x96.253793@attbi_s72...
Well, Pete, I see a lot of misery and scary things in the world today --
and (although I have my ups and downs) I am generally living a very
enjoyable life, and having a great time doing it.

I am too. So what?

I would like to be able to share my love of aviation, and Mary and I do
everything possible to see that people who stay at our inn get the chance
to go for a ride in a small plane.

That's wonderful, for the people who are actually interested. But why think
poorly of, or puzzle over, those who are not?

It's a money-losing proposition, but it's what we are all about.

Again, that's wonderful. Sharing, of any sort, can be very fulfilling. I
still fail to see the relevance to this discussion.

The world could do a lot worse than to "live lives just like mine"...

The world? Seems you have a bit of an ego complex going there.

Not everyone would be happy living the life you do. For many people, living
your life would be an absolute nightmare, while for others, it would simply
be drudgery. It's a very fortunate thing that you have found what you love,
and love what you have found, but you should not make the mistake of
thinking that what you love is the same as what everyone else does or would
love.

I do believe that everyone has the right and should hope to find something
that they find challenging, fulfilling, and pleasurable. Something that
makes their lives happy and worthwhile. But why should that thing be
aviation for every single person?

[...] If we can figure out why so many people start -- and quit -- pilot
training, perhaps we can counter the downward trend somehow?

I find your goal admirable. However, as long as you keep barking up the
wrong tree, you'll continue to fail to make any significant progress toward
that goal.

Pete