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#71
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New Butterfly Vario
On Feb 9, 4:50*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Feb 9, 2:04*pm, T8 wrote: On Feb 9, 1:17*pm, Mike the Strike wrote: *Even the "gentleman's agreement" doesn't work to control this. *I have been in and around enough contests to see this frequently and (at least after a few beers) most contest pilots will fess up! *I have seen more than one of the names high on the ranking list sneaking out of the side of a cumulus! Then you have a problem. *Your options would appear to be peer pressure or the safety box. I'm not really a safety monkey (I'd go back to zero height finish lines in a heartbeat), but I chafe badly when confronted with borderline suicidal behavior. *This is one such instance. *I'd be absolutely ripped if I had a really good day, stayed legal, got beat by some jackass cloud flying. -Evan Ludeman / T8 I'll repeat what I said earlier and Andy pointed out a few posts ago - it's very hard to know when to pull out of a strong thermal as you approach cloudbase, particularly out west. *Most competitive pilots will go as high as they can, since there is no practical way to maintain the mandated clearance and no penalty if they do bust it. Most will go into cloud as an unintended consequence at the top of a fast climb they held for just one turn too many. *This will happen regardless of whether or not there are cloud-flying instruments. Many competitors are already breaking the rules on mandated clearance from clouds and there is no way to monitor this or penalize the behavior. *If you want to prevent it, you are going to have to come up with a way to monitor it. As a fellow contest pilot said to me "I'll start worrying when clouds are shown on igc files" Mike Ah, okay. I misread your comments earlier as something much less "incidental". -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#72
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New Butterfly Vario
I would only like to make you guys think about the following. With
current GPS moving map devices and sampling rates of = 1 sec as well as very high zoom selection you already pretty much know if you are turning or not. If you add bank indicator (still allowed) you have all you need for T&B. I don't have an opinion on allowing AH type of instruments in our cockpits. I am against cloud flying period. I realize though enforcing this is next to impossible unless we all have cameras to record our flights for inspection. No more devices in my cockpit. I am already scratching my head where to put the PowerFlarm (ghost). I also need a small nuclear power plant in my glider to power all of these "must have" devices. |
#73
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New Butterfly Vario
Exactly. So the chance of being proficient and climbing up into the cloud using a turn and bank is slim to none. Right. So why not let pilots have a turn and bank so that there is at least a chance for them if they do one day get into the cloud.
A hear post after post and frankly am losing respect fast. This is so wrong...sad. The RC craps on safety out of fear that someone might cheat with an instrument that even the RC says is unusable for what is feared, thermal-ling into clouds with it. You guys would be great witnesses in my trial...keep it coming. Really think about what you are saying here. 1) assuming anyone with a safety instrument onboard at a contest has installed it to cheat 2) assuming that a) its impossible to use safely if IMC is encountered AND AT THE SAME TIME b) that everyone with one intends to cheat and will benefit from it. 3) totally disregarding the safety aspect of the instrument. More observations: Why does any glider have one? Why does any light airplane have one? Why do these companies build AH's into their instruments? Are these people all idiots? Because that's what you are saying. Why do these instruments exist for gliders? In any form? Hmmmm? |
#74
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New Butterfly Vario
On 2/9/2012 12:07 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
What if I have flown contests? What if I havent? Please define for us all in advance what that information does for you Eric. I'm hoping that knowing your experience will let me discuss the situation with you more usefully, rather than just guessing at it and telling you things you already know, or omitting things that would be useful to you. You know my experience in contests from my comments here, but I still don't know yours. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) |
#75
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New Butterfly Vario
On 2/9/2012 7:49 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
Exactly. So the chance of being proficient and climbing up into the cloud using a turn and bank is slim to none. Right. So why not let pilots have a turn and bank so that there is at least a chance for them if they do one day get into the cloud. A hear post after post and frankly am losing respect fast. This is so wrong...sad. The RC craps on safety out of fear that someone might cheat with an instrument that even the RC says is unusable for what is feared, thermal-ling into clouds with it. You guys would be great witnesses in my trial...keep it coming. Really think about what you are saying here. 1) assuming anyone with a safety instrument onboard at a contest has installed it to cheat 2) assuming that a) its impossible to use safely if IMC is encountered AND AT THE SAME TIME b) that everyone with one intends to cheat and will benefit from it. 3) totally disregarding the safety aspect of the instrument. More observations: Why does any glider have one? Why does any light airplane have one? Why do these companies build AH's into their instruments? Are these people all idiots? Because that's what you are saying. Why do these instruments exist for gliders? In any form? Hmmmm? My guess is you have not flown in contests, do not have experience flying in clouds in a glider, and do not have very much glider experience. I flew contests for 30 years, and never needed a cloud-flying instrument, nor did anyone report needing one, and no one has lobbied for them to be allowed. 30 years! Plus, I've flown 5000 hours in gliders outside of contests, and never needed one even then. You are making way too big a deal out this. The risks in contests do not come from flying without a cloud-flying instrument, but from many other sources. It is not just at the bottom of the list; it's not even on the list. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz |
#76
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New Butterfly Vario
On Feb 9, 5:55*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
If you add bank indicator (still allowed) you have all you need for T&B. To the best of my knowledge the only bank indicator allowed by SSA contest rules is the pilot's view of the world outside the cockpit. What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ? Andy |
#77
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New Butterfly Vario
On Feb 10, 7:26*am, Andy wrote:
What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ? That's his checkbook register. After buying that fancy ASG-29, it's a pretty small number and hence easy to read in the cockpit. The fear of damaging damaging such a valuable asset keeps him out of cloud :-). -T8 (slipping, one bubble off center) |
#78
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New Butterfly Vario
On Feb 10, 5:54*am, T8 wrote:
On Feb 10, 7:26*am, Andy wrote: What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ? That's his checkbook register. *After buying that fancy ASG-29, it's a pretty small number and hence easy to read in the cockpit. *The fear of damaging damaging such a valuable asset keeps him out of cloud :-). -T8 (slipping, one bubble off center) Eric - the issue is not whether or not you need a particular instrument but whether, since they are going to be included in an increasing number of multi-use instruments, these should be prohibited. In nearly 2,000 hours of glider flying, I have only found the need for a horizon on two occasions, but I was glad to have one! Your argument could be used for parachutes too - I have never needed or used mine. Mike |
#79
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New Butterfly Vario
So I received this email today. Who else received this email?
12:49 PM (2 minutes ago) to me This message may not have been sent by: Learn more Report phishing The Rules Committee (RC) has become aware of glider instruments that are available, or will soon be available, which will have built-in artificial horizon capabilities. The RC reaffirms the longstanding rule that instruments which can be used to enable flight without reference to the ground are prohibited in competition. The RC policy addressing this issue is posted on the SSA website: www.ssa.org sailplane racing rules & process important reading -- Instruments with Artificial Horizon or T&B Features http://www.ssa.org/files/member/Rest...t%20Policy.pdf SSA Contest Committee Chair -------------------------------------------- And what of my watch, my 396, etc?? I think the rules committee might want to consider another path. I would hate for someone to get tossed at the end of the competition because they flew with an instrument that might save their life someday / or an instrument which has AH capability that they were unaware of... I just find this rule silly, but perhaps I underestimate the lengths that some might go to cheat. Wow is this a dark side of contest soaring. What a shame that this is a policy that some want to stand behind. Safety should be the priority. Here...ANTI SAFETY is the goal. |
#80
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New Butterfly Vario
I do fly contests, have many, many hours, am a commercial pilot, instrument rated. So I guess your incorrect. Hmmm.
Any more lessons for me? |
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