Pearl Harbor Defense

Mike Dargan writes:


The problem was with the magnetic fuses. Again, the dimwits in charge
refused to do proper testing. The tests were expensive and the Navy
knew that their white engineers had innate superiority to gooks.

Sounds just like Star Wars II, going on now.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Guinnog65 wrote:
"Mike Dargan" wrote in message
news:gaK3d.128016$3l3.43395@attbi_s03...

Cub Driver wrote:

Nobody dreamed Pearl would have been the target.

Nonsense. Ever hear of Billy Mitchell?


Numerous people envisioned an attack on Pearl Harbor. Claire Chennault
was part of war games in the early 1930s that gamed such an attack.

Of course, people also envisioned an attack on the Panama Canal and
New York City. After the attack, whether it's Pearl Harbor or the
World Trade Center, the conspiracy buffs trot out the clear trail of
warning that *any fool* would have noticed.

Your straw man is hopelessly lame. There's no need to allege conspiracy
here, MacArthur, Kimmel and Short were asleep at the switch. They ignored
one warning after another. They should have hanged the lot of them.


It seems very obvious to
us now that the Japanese would attack Hawaii. It didn't seem obvious
in December 1941.

Then why was Pearl surrounded with gun emplacements? Were they figuring
to flock shoot pheasants? Why did they have interceptors based in Hawaii?
What were they going to intercept? How big would a P40's drop tanks have
to be to attack Tokyo and return? Do you think Hawaii was a training
base? Cheaper than Texas? Why base interceptors where you don't expect
an attack? What, if anything, are the Kimmel/Short apologists thinking
of?


(What was obvious was that they would attack Malaya, Indonesia, and
the Philippines.

Don't forget Singapore. That surrender made Churchill pull the covers up
over his head. About 30,000 Japanese on bicycles rolled up a UK garrison
of 88,000. Turns out that the Gibraltar of the east was the Tobruk of
Asia times two.

Nobody there was prepared, either.

It wasn't because of lack of supply or other support from the states. If
they'd had twice the resources the Japanese would have had twice as many
targets. The problem was a lack of leadership. If you'd have swapped
Allied generals and admirals with those of the Japanese, the outcomes
would have been reversed.

And if somebody

was, little good it did him.)

The notion that resistance to the Japanese was hopeless is what made it
hopeless. If the Allied heroes had gathered their wits and acted like
leaders instead of pathetic old geezers, the second week of December 41
could have turned out far differently.


Great post. I still suspect there was more than a hint of racism in the
assumptions that were made about the warmaking abilities of the Japanese.


Right. When people make cracks like "no one imagined an attack on
Pearl," they really mean "no one imagined a bunch of slanty-eyed,
stunted, jabbering, monkey-like gooks would have the technical and
military expertise necessary to attack a modern industrial nation run by
a bunch of white folks."

Cheers

--mike

Mike Dargan wrote:

Guinnog65 wrote:

Great post. I still suspect there was more than a hint of racism in the
assumptions that were made about the warmaking abilities of the Japanese.

Right. When people make cracks like "no one imagined an attack on
Pearl," they really mean "no one imagined a bunch of slanty-eyed,
stunted, jabbering, monkey-like gooks would have the technical and
military expertise necessary to attack a modern industrial nation run by
a bunch of white folks."

Kinda like 9/11 in fact ? ( substitute camel-jockeys for slanty-eyes )

Graham

"Mike Dargan" wrote in message
news:l964d.344733$8_6.85223@attbi_s04...

Right. When people make cracks like "no one imagined an attack on
Pearl," they really mean "no one imagined a bunch of slanty-eyed,
stunted, jabbering, monkey-like gooks would have the technical and
military expertise necessary to attack a modern industrial nation run by
a bunch of white folks."


Sorry to spoil your rant but an attack on a nation run by
white folks was exactly what WAS expected. The problem
was that while they believed attacks would take place at
Midway , Wake and the Phillipines they didnt believe
the IJN had the capability to attack at PH

Keith

vincent p. norris wrote in message . ..
..... the IJNs Japanese Navy Long Lance Torpedo could manage 46
knots for about 22 knautical miles and 35 Knots for about 36 nautical
miles.

Impressive but is there even the slightest chance of hitting a ship
22 nm away?

The Type 93 or "Long Lance" had this 40,000 meter range. It was
however a large ship launched torpedo. The Type 95 was a reduced size
version of the "Long Lance" with a range of 12,000 meters designed for
submarine use. For giggles it is worth mentioning that the US Navy's
surface torpedoes managed about 5500 yards and their submarine
torpedoes about 1800 at this time.

I expect a spread of torpedoes were fired such that at extreme range 6
or 8 torpedoes would be distributed every 100 meters or so for an
600-800 meter wide hit window. Don't forget a ship is likely to be
between 100 to 300 meter long.

The Germans had torpedoes that could run various types of zig-zag and
circling patterns either aimed at individual ships or designed to run
through convoys. The patterns were becoming more sophisticated as the
mechanisms improved. So presumnably if the range measure was wrong or
the target evaded the torpedo it could turn around and have another
attempt.

The deadliness of the u-boats was due to their aiming computer which
could compute 5 simultaneous firing solutions on seperate targets.
Hit rates of around 80% were common.

A combination of German and Japanese technology would have been lethal
I expect though who knows how good the japanese torpedoe guidence was?

US torpedoes tended to be less accurate perhaps due to the use aiming
by sonar due to the visibility of the subs at periscope depth.

The German Type XXI u-boat had the an array sonar that was unusually
accurate and capable of ranging (and thereby plotting and evading
attacking ships) german hydrophones were based on passive arrays
electronicaly processed and distributed around the hull and were far
more accurate and sensitive than allied ones. Sonar ranging both
active and passive allowed the Type XXI to attack without use of
periscope.




vince norris

In article , Denyav
writes
Do you mean it was as true in 2001 as it was in 1941, i.e. not at all,
except in your fevered little brain cell? I wish I had an imagination as
active as yours.

You dont need to ,even a third grader can understand what Brzezinski meant.

Perhaps, but I have no idea what you mean. Or even what ZB said.

Anglos were both in 1941 and 2001 a minority in US population.(if you are
interested German-Americans make up biggest single ethnic group in US,ffollowed
by Irish-Americans)but fully dominated decision making platforms both in 1941
and 2001.

Does the average American really care much about people's ethnic
background? Or only the paranoid, such as yourself?

So if an ethnic group wants to rule a big country , they need either
Republican Guard divisions manned by the members of ruling ethnic and/or
religious group or if you cannot do that, PSYOPs that gives the impression that
the US under massive external threat.

What?

Keep up the good work, it gives us a good laugh from time to time.
--

Good Luck to all Anglos including our minority Anglos as well as to Anglos in
Anglo homeland and in Australia.

What _are_ you talking about?

Anglo" (whatever the hell that means) conspiracy.


Meaning of Anglo? Well you should check out works and deeds of great British
Statesman Lord Rhodes.

Who? If you mean Cecil Rhodes, he was many things, but never a Lord.
Your credibility, minuscule as it is, is diminished further by your lack
of accuracy.

Is an Anglo someone of purely* English ancestry, such as Washington? Is
a Scot like Polk classed as an Anglo? What about the Irish connection:
JFK and Reagan?

*Do you have any idea how the English came to be?

You know all of our Presidents are either Rhodes scholars or certified by
Boston Brahmins.

I know no such thing. I have never given such considerations a moment's
thought.

If you think that Rhodes Scholarships are an Anglo-American conspiracy,
why did they originally include Germans?


Nice bit of snipping of the preceding post, BTW. It's all right, you
don't have to apologise for making a mistake and calling the Roosevelts
"Anglos", we wouldn't like you to do anything that's out of character.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Mike Dargan" wrote in message
news:l964d.344733$8_6.85223@attbi_s04...

Right. When people make cracks like "no one imagined an attack on
Pearl," they really mean "no one imagined a bunch of slanty-eyed,
stunted, jabbering, monkey-like gooks would have the technical and
military expertise necessary to attack a modern industrial nation run by
a bunch of white folks."


Sorry to spoil your rant but an attack on a nation run by
white folks was exactly what WAS expected. The problem
was that while they believed attacks would take place at
Midway , Wake and the Phillipines they didnt believe
the IJN had the capability to attack at PH

Sure. And it is unprovable *why* their expectations were such. But certainly
a read of the contemporary documentation wrt Pearl and Singapore as well,
reveals attitudes towards the Japanese that would seem very racist to us
nowadays. It is at least tempting to assume their low expectations of them
were connected to their racist beliefs of them. This 40 years after
Tsushima, mind.

"Eunometic" wrote in message
om...


The German Type XXI u-boat had the an array sonar that was unusually
accurate and capable of ranging (and thereby plotting and evading
attacking ships) german hydrophones were based on passive arrays
electronicaly processed and distributed around the hull and were far
more accurate and sensitive than allied ones. Sonar ranging both
active and passive allowed the Type XXI to attack without use of
periscope.


In theory, in practise the vast majority of type XXI boats
built were of such poor quality that they were unfit for
service and only one ever went on patrol. The list of ships
sunk by this type follows

Start of List
End of List

Keith

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:28:18 +0100, "Guinnog65"
wrote:

And it is unprovable *why* their expectations were such

It's so easy to mock decisions made before the event!

Have you never looked at a globe? Raiding Pearl Harbor from Japan was
the equivalent of the U.S.'s attacking Murmansk from New York City.
Nothing like it was ever done in history before, and nothing like it
ever happened again with the possible exception of Operation Torch, in
which an American invasion fleet left Hampton Roads to attack
French-held North Africa.

Even in 2001, we wouldn't attempt what the Japanese attempted at Pearl
Harbor. We can launch bombing raids on Baghdad from Sam's Knob,
Missouri, but those are only individual planes. Perhaps the Marines
landing in Afghanistan from ships offshore--a whole country away--was
similar, but that was mere hundreds of miles, not thousands.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

On 21 Sep 2004 19:29:04 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

Denyav, we only have one president and he is neither.

No, he is merely a graduate of Andover, Yale, Harvard Business School,
a self-made millionaire, and a retired jet jockey.

(Not to mention ex-governor of Texas and pending two-term president of
the United States


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com