CAVU and I'm Grounded!

"Saryon" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 18:36:59 -0500, "Ron Natalie"
Hmm.. Well, it would appear that my book is wrong. Although that
wouldn't be the first time. It says "There are no communication or
equipment requirements for aircraft flying VFR in Class E airspace."

There is no requirement to HAVE a transponder in class E (as long as
you're outside the places that specifically require it like the Class B veils).

However, the rule says if you've got an operable transponder, you must turn it on in controlled
(class E or better) airspace.

The wiggle room is that if it's out of inspection, you can argue that it's
not "operable" and just leave it off if you are outside airspace that specifically
requires it.

Turning it off if you've got a working one is stupid. There was a midair a few
years back (Atlanta area if I remember) that involved one aircraft who INTENTIONALLY
shut off his transponder. Might it have been avoided with ATC getting mode C from
both? Who knows, but the rules are pretty clear.

Mine goes as part of my pretakeoff checks (set DG, Strobes on, pump on, transponder on).

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 12:48:42 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Chicago Center has trainees, lots of 'em.

Great. You're not inspiring any confidence here, Newps... ;-)

Please tell me that before you can become an ATC trainee at Chicago Center,
you have to first be a controller at some other backwater part of the
country, right?

Or, at the very least, tell me they first assign the trainees to my neck of
the woods, where traffic is relatively light?

The US Navy apparently uses Whitbey Island NAS in Washington State as a
training ground for new controllers. A number of years back, I was riding
shotgun in a Helio Courier carrying an experimental satellite camera. We
were running tests on it just outside the Class C airspace at Whitbey. The
plane was owned by Boeing and operated by the Boeing Flight Test
organization; the pilot was actually the chief of flight test for several
of the company models. Because of the proximity to the Class C, the pilot
established comm with NAS Whitbey so they'd know what he was up to.

Anyway, we had a combination of operations just outside the Class C, the
moral equivalent of an old, grizzled, test pilot, a test grid we had to fly
by GPS, and newbie controllers who apparently believed if we were on their
scope and talking to them, they could tell us where to fly. They seemed a
bit confused when we kept telling them, "no."

Ron Wanttaja

Jay Honeck wrote:

Chicago Center has trainees, lots of 'em.


Great. You're not inspiring any confidence here, Newps... ;-)

Please tell me that before you can become an ATC trainee at Chicago Center,
you have to first be a controller at some other backwater part of the
country, right?

No. When I went thru the Academy in Oklahoma City in 1988-89 on
graduation day you would separate into your regions and march down there
one by one and get your assignment. Every region would have a list of
where they needed people. Centers always needed people, and probably
still do, because only about 20-30% of the people wanted to go there.
These people were only looking at the money end of it and the vast
majority washed out. Chicago was like any other center, when they
needed people they got them from the Academy. As for working at some
backwater place before going to Chicago or any other center, nobody
experiences life in a nice place and then transfers into a center. The
centers have to get them before they wise up because they'll never get
them after.



Or, at the very least, tell me they first assign the trainees to my neck of
the woods, where traffic is relatively light?

Once you get to a center you are assigned to an area that needs people.
You'd have to ask Chip how they handle it in Atlanta but if you are
asking do they do some kind of screening process to see where you fit in
the answer is no.

Ron Natalie wrote:


Turning it off if you've got a working one is stupid. There was a midair a few
years back (Atlanta area if I remember) that involved one aircraft who INTENTIONALLY
shut off his transponder. Might it have been avoided with ATC getting mode C from
both? Who knows, but the rules are pretty clear.

Mine goes as part of my pretakeoff checks (set DG, Strobes on, pump on, transponder on).

And mine never gets turned off. If the avionics master is on the
transponder is on. There's no reason to turn it off if it is operating
properly.

Ron Wanttaja wrote:

Anyway, we had a combination of operations just outside the Class C, the moral
equivalent of an old, grizzled, test pilot, a test grid we had to fly by GPS,
and newbie controllers who apparently believed if we were on their scope and
talking to them, they could tell us where to fly.

And the truth is they COULD and DID tell you where to fly. And your pilot
(reasonably) disregarded their direction. Isn't that the way it always works?
It is up to the pilot to decide based on the all available information. As an
example of what can go wrong if a pilot follows a controller's erroneous
instructions: it was (apparently) the controller who instructed the pilot to
descend when his TCAS said climb that was a major factor in the mid-air of that
planeload of Russion kids in Switzerland last year. I can understand why the
father stabbed the controller to death a few days ago...

Russell Kent

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:22:27 -0500, "Ron Natalie"
wrote:


"Saryon" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 18:36:59 -0500, "Ron Natalie"
Hmm.. Well, it would appear that my book is wrong. Although that
wouldn't be the first time. It says "There are no communication or
equipment requirements for aircraft flying VFR in Class E airspace."

There is no requirement to HAVE a transponder in class E (as long as
you're outside the places that specifically require it like the Class B veils).

However, the rule says if you've got an operable transponder, you must turn it on in controlled
(class E or better) airspace.

The wiggle room is that if it's out of inspection, you can argue that it's
not "operable" and just leave it off if you are outside airspace that specifically
requires it

OK, but in this case the package is designed around a Cessna 172 which
comes with one standard. Why don't they just say "on at all times
outside of class G" instead of teaching what they seem to see as the
rule? To me they're saying "I can leave it in the OFF position if I'm
not in A, am outside of B, veil, or C airspace, and under 10,000
feet".

"Saryon" wrote in message ...
OK, but in this case the package is designed around a Cessna 172 which
comes with one standard. Why don't they just say "on at all times
outside of class G" instead of teaching what they seem to see as the
rule? To me they're saying "I can leave it in the OFF position if I'm
not in A, am outside of B, veil, or C airspace, and under 10,000
feet".

Frankly, the rules say any controlled airspace.
Good practice says, turn in on unless you've been told to turn it off.

Newps wrote:

And mine never gets turned off. If the avionics master is on the transponder is on. There's
no reason to turn it off if it is operating properly.

I've heard (but never directly experienced) that controller may request that your transponder
be switched to standby once you're on the ground. But short of that, I'd have to agree with
newps.

Russell Kent

All ATC radar has software built in to suppress returns from on the
airport surface. We set ours so we see no transponders within 1/2 mile
of the antenna.



Russell Kent wrote:
Newps wrote:


And mine never gets turned off. If the avionics master is on the transponder is on. There's
no reason to turn it off if it is operating properly.


I've heard (but never directly experienced) that controller may request that your transponder
be switched to standby once you're on the ground. But short of that, I'd have to agree with
newps.

Russell Kent

The
centers have to get them before they wise up because they'll never get
them after.

That's interesting. Why are the centers so unpopular with controllers?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"