Why is Soaring declining

On 16 Apr 2004 09:55:45 -0700, (Lennie the
Lurker) wrote:

No, the elitism is more often in casual remarks, ("Why anyone would
want to fly that POS is beyond me."), snide little derogatory remarks
towards any that can't or won't spend themselves into bankruptcy for
the sake of maintaining an image. "You'll never (insert favorite
action here) if you keep flying (Insert favorite target aircraft
here)". What part of "This is as much as I'm willing to spend" do you
have a problem understanding? "You will soon get tired of it and want
something better."

That's pretty sad. Where I fly the private gliders range from a really
nice Ka-6 and a couple of Capstans (British wooden side-by-side two
seater) up to new Duos and ASH-25s via a whole stack of Pegases,
Mosquitos, ASW-20s and Discii, but I've never heard those sorts of
remarks made and wouldn't dream of making them.

I don't understand people only who judge themselves and others by the
cost and shininess of their toys or those who only compete to win. I'm
moderately competitive but I do it for fun, friendship and because it
encourages me to fly on less than perfect days.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Martin Gregorie wrote in message . ..


That's pretty sad. Where I fly the private gliders range from a really
nice Ka-6 and a couple of Capstans (British wooden side-by-side two
seater) up to new Duos and ASH-25s via a whole stack of Pegases,
Mosquitos, ASW-20s and Discii, but I've never heard those sorts of
remarks made and wouldn't dream of making them.

In 2 1/2 years, I heard at least one of them every day I went to the
airport. How long was I supposed to put up with it before I chucked
the whole damn thing in the trash? Every good day ruined by one
egotistic ass, and I'm supposed to think it's fun? As I've said, not
everyone, only enough of a minority to spoil the whole experience.
"Come on out and get your daily downer." Sorry, someone else can have
it.

At least a few have finally seen that I'm not aiming at specific
individuals, save for finley, and can see the points that I think are
hurting. Maybe I'm more sensitive towards certain behaviors than most
others, and I know that outside of the metalworking profession, I
don't fit in well. However, I've never said otherwise either. From
being an outsider, to an insider, and back to an outsider, I don't
think I'll rock my own boat again.

And I don't think I'm the only one.

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 16:55:45 UTC, (Lennie
the Lurker) wrote:

: What part of "This is as much as I'm willing to spend" do you
: have a problem understanding? "You will soon get tired of it and want
: something better."

Martin seems to be talking about buying a second hand glass glider and
keeping it for ten years, so I don't think he can be accused of the
snobbery which undeniably exists...

That said, I thought when I bought the Pirat that I'd keep it for a
coupleof years and then get something posher to have more fun. But I
have realised:

1) that I'm still having a huge amount of fun at 34:1 and

2) that if I spent twice as much money I wouldn't have twice as much
fun.

Ian
--

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-xYurcmhP6ui1@localhost...
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 16:55:45 UTC, (Lennie
the Lurker) wrote:

: What part of "This is as much as I'm willing to spend" do you
: have a problem understanding? "You will soon get tired of it and want
: something better."

Martin seems to be talking about buying a second hand glass glider and
keeping it for ten years, so I don't think he can be accused of the
snobbery which undeniably exists...

And I wasn't addressing Martin, sorry if it sounded like it, but taken
as a general dialogue with others as it had happened. More like a
sarcastic statement that I wish I had more than just thought. I doubt
that any at the local field saw it coming, I don't show anything
bothering me until I explode, then I destroy everything in sight. And
I know, (Sorry, Judy) that there were many times that I belonged in my
truck headed for home, not in the cockpit behind the Pawnee.
Needless to say, on those days I did not fly well.

The number of new people is probably controlled by outside forces, but
retaining them is controlled from within. there is no "magic bullet"
that will cure it, it's going to take a lot of bullets from individual
effort.

In all the European clubs I have come across, I never watched such a
behaviour. Although I personally think that a PW5 or a 1-26 don't represent
good value for the money (I haven't tons of money, so I need to care :-) I
and most people I met sincerely believe that it is not important what
exactly you fly, the important thing is to fly and to have fun.
And if it comes to all those low-performance-monsters - that's how I started
out long ago, and although I much prefer the ships I fly today there are
very good memories (that I don't want to miss) connected to Ka8, Ka7 L-Spatz
and so on.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Lennie the Lurker" a écrit dans le message de
om...
Martin Gregorie wrote in message
. ..

Sadly, these days (in the UK anyway) it seems that accusations of
elitism often get applied to anything that can't be mastered instantly
and doesn't involve chasing a ball. Gliding is obviously elitist just
because becoming a soaring pilot takes time and involves learning a
number of new skills.

No, the elitism is more often in casual remarks, ("Why anyone would
want to fly that POS is beyond me."), snide little derogatory remarks
towards any that can't or won't spend themselves into bankruptcy for
the sake of maintaining an image. "You'll never (insert favorite
action here) if you keep flying (Insert favorite target aircraft
here)". What part of "This is as much as I'm willing to spend" do you
have a problem understanding? "You will soon get tired of it and want
something better." I'm tired of my 13 year old Chevy truck and would
like a Dodge Viper, too. But it ain't gonna happen. Or as the one
fellow that I still talk with told me, when they're leaning on their
trailers with the glass still inside, laughing up their sleeves
because he's going up in the 2-33, they're still standing on the
ground watching him fly. "I wouldn't waste my time flying (Insert
name here)." (Then stand there and watch everyone else fly.)
"Conditions aren't good enough today." (Great, that means your hour in
the rental is open for someone else.)

Evidently your stomach for elitism and generalized stupidity is
greater than mine.

"Bert Willing" wrote in message ...
In all the European clubs I have come across, I never watched such a
behaviour.

There is a difference between a club and a commercial operation. In a
club, such things can be somewhat controlled by general consensus. In
a commercial, it's paying customer to paying customer, and nobody is
in control of it.

One example of things I disagree with, one of the aircraft supply
houses saw in their "infinite wisdom" that I "needed" a subscription
to Flying magazine, without asking if I wanted it. It has been over
two years since I even sat in a cockpit, and I pointed this out to
them when I called them and told them to cancel the subscription.
Another copy of the mag lasted five seconds between being placed in my
mailbox, and placed on the bottom of the garbage can. (And if anyone
can't make the connection, what I told them was "NO!", not "maybe".
["What part of NO do you not understand?"]) A certain amount of
aggressiveness is needed to bring in new people. Going beyond that is
pushing something I've already stated I don't want. There is no risk
that they're going to **** me off a little more, it's a certainty.

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:41:34 UTC, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

: Buying my ASW-20 and flying it for a year will cost less than œ20K.
: Amortising that cost over 10 years will reduce the yearly outlay to
: the equivalent of flying a club glider

You could get 5% interest on the 20K, which is a thousand a year.
Plus, what, five hundred for the insurance?

That fifteen hundred quid would buy you seventy hours in a Sutton Bank
DG300 (at 36p/minute) or almost twenty maximum length flights (at
œ75.20 per flight) If the purchase price needs borrowed I reckon the
payback time for a private glass glider is about 100 hours/year. Wood
50 hours/year. Both subject to midification at cheap clubs, or in
syndicates.

However, that's a by product. I like flying my wooden Pirat and I love
flying Ka8's. I have never, ever, flown either type at any club
without having a range of derogatory comments from people - often low
hours pilots who wish to buy credibility and badges - about those
types. Well stuff 'em. I know what I like and the sniping doesn't
bother me. I'm pretty sure that attitude gives a very bad impression
to many potential members who overhear it.

Ian

(PS I'm not accusing Martin of glass snobbery for an instant - I'm
just using his post as a convenient hook for my tirade!)

--

At 23:24 15 April 2004, Lennie The Lurker wrote:
(Liam Finley) wrote in message news:...

Perhaps we should start voluntarily limiting our flights
to 1 hour and
within 15 miles of the airport so the Lennies of the
world needn't
feel so bad about their lack of achievement.

That's quite ok, lemming. If I work for five minutes,
I will have
achieved more in those five minutes than you have in
your lifetime.
Hours in the log mean nothing outside of that piece
of garbage
wrapping. MY greatest achievement was realizing that
soaring is just
a money suck, and getting out of it. Next came the
axle for the
motorized wheelchair that I made a week ago at no cost.
Your soaring
achievements have done _what_ to help someone else
that has a _real_
need?

Pipe it up your rear, kraut.



Oh Lennie, Lennie, Lennie. You nearly had us convinced
for a second that you had actually sorted out your
severe metal disorder! But, all good things come to
those who wait! I knew you would go back to your old
ways eventually.

your last post - Sorry your last flight wasnt that
good. My last flight at a similar cost was in a Discus
2a (Monday) running a convergence line up and down
England. It was absolutely awesome. I dont regret spending
a single penny on gliding. I think its tragic that
you are angry with the gliding scene and, as always,
am at an utter loss at why you persist in posting here
when you have such a (well documented) hatred for gliding.

Elitism - its lonely at the top but the view is good!
(I put that here as a joke!!)

Owain

Owain Walters wrote in message ...

your last post - Sorry your last flight wasnt that
good.

IT was exactly as I had intended it to be, to hold the turns in each
direction without having my airspeed all over the map. (Which, for
some unknown reason I had developed a problem with.) No other reason.
However, I seem to remember mentioning it here, and being ripped for
the short time. (On a winter day, late in the afternoon, wind coming
off Lake Michigan. Ummmm, yeah.) It doesn't matter now, it's been
long enough that if I was to start over, it would have to be from
square one, and the problem of the big mouths would still be there,
maybe the faces would change, but nothing else would. It's alright,
I've made my trip there for the year, no reason to go there again.
Doesn't matter one way or another.

I find it interesting that almost no one has mentioned what I believe to be
the real problem with soaring.
It is a pain in the butt to go soaring.
Here in the US where most soaring is done at commercial sites vs. clubs,
commercial operations make it almost impossible
for a newcomer to say "I want to take a lesson and learn how to soar". Or,
for that matter, a oldcomer to rent a glider for a time.

Commercial operations in the US are good-old-boy networks. They may be run
by nice folks but good businessmen they are not.
Reserve a glider for 10:00 and arrive at 09:30.

At that time you will find:

1. The glider is out of annual and nobody called.
2. The glider needs to be deiced and won't be ready for 3 hours.
3. The glider crashed just yesterday and nobody called.
4. The tow plane is down.
5. The tow plane pilot is late/won't be here today.
6. The tow plane needs to be refueled so can you wait an hour or two?
7. We have to use the glider for a ride, you don't mind do you?
8. Oh were you on the schedule for today?
9. Sorry you can't go right away .... (fill in your reason here.)

We retired folk can put up with it, though we may not like it. The younger
person with job, family and other obligations runs on a tight
schedule. Get put off once or twice when you still have to take the kids to
a soccer game ar mow the lawn on one of your two days
off and you are not likely to go back.

Frankly, despite the good social environment, waiting for 3 hours to fly for
1 just isn't worth my time.

The solution:
1. Join a club.
2. Buy your own glider.
3. Buy a motor glider.

I doubt that the business climate and those associated with it will ever
change. Without such change we will see a further decline in soaring
and those entering it.

Allan