Circling for rodents?

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message news:aa4Fc.11095$7t3.8707@attbi_s51...

Most hawks circling low are looking for rodents, not lift.

Bill Daniels


But many times I have shared thermals with Hawks at high altitude.
How did they get there if not by working thermals at low altitude? I
have never been in a thermal with a Red Tailed Hawk that didn't seem
to be trying to optimize climb rate. Turkey Vultures are a different
story. They seem to be happy with any sloppy thermal technique as
long as they maintain altitude.


Andy

Gulls will circle in sink just to lure the unsuspecting soaring pilot.

"Andy Durbin" wrote in message
om...
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:aa4Fc.11095$7t3.8707@attbi_s51...

Most hawks circling low are looking for rodents, not lift.

Bill Daniels


But many times I have shared thermals with Hawks at high altitude.
How did they get there if not by working thermals at low altitude? I
have never been in a thermal with a Red Tailed Hawk that didn't seem
to be trying to optimize climb rate. Turkey Vultures are a different
story. They seem to be happy with any sloppy thermal technique as
long as they maintain altitude.


Andy

(Andy Durbin) wrote in message . com...
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message news:aa4Fc.11095$7t3.8707@attbi_s51...

Most hawks circling low are looking for rodents, not lift.

Bill Daniels


But many times I have shared thermals with Hawks at high altitude.
How did they get there if not by working thermals at low altitude? I
have never been in a thermal with a Red Tailed Hawk that didn't seem
to be trying to optimize climb rate. Turkey Vultures are a different
story. They seem to be happy with any sloppy thermal technique as
long as they maintain altitude.


Andy

Andy,
My theory is that all the large and small raptors mostly go soaring
for the fun of it, just as we do. On occasion they thermal and run
while migrating like the large groups of Broad-Wings (50-100) observed
in September along the Appalachian ridges. I believe that after
catching their prey for the day most of the hawks we encounter just
enjoy the soaring conditions. Some years back I was flying the
cooling tower thermal of a nuclear power plant in NC when I noticed 4
or 5 buzzards circling above at around 5,500'. They got closer to the
well-developed base of the Cu above and then all disappeared
continuing their circle. I watched the bottom of the cloud until I
reached it and never did see them again. Relating the story to Karl
Striedieck he didn't seem surprised and explained that it is quite
normal for them to climb to the top of lift in the cloud and then cut
out to the side. I did not follow them.
They do have a couple millions of years of experience on us.
Herb, J7

you must be sharing thermals with the ones going out for dinner... cross
country

BT

"Andy Durbin" wrote in message
om...
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:aa4Fc.11095$7t3.8707@attbi_s51...

Most hawks circling low are looking for rodents, not lift.

Bill Daniels


But many times I have shared thermals with Hawks at high altitude.
How did they get there if not by working thermals at low altitude? I
have never been in a thermal with a Red Tailed Hawk that didn't seem
to be trying to optimize climb rate. Turkey Vultures are a different
story. They seem to be happy with any sloppy thermal technique as
long as they maintain altitude.


Andy

Does anyone have an idea of how the birds know where to thermal? Do
they have a vario? Where is it? Where is its capacity?
Assuming they breath while thermalling, then I doubt they use their
lungs as capacity... or maybe they stop and sense the air coming out
their noses.
Just wondering...

Uri 4XGJC

(Andy Durbin) wrote in message
. com...
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message news:aa4Fc.11095$7t3.8707@attbi_s51...

Most hawks circling low are looking for rodents, not lift.

Bill Daniels


But many times I have shared thermals with Hawks at high altitude.
How did they get there if not by working thermals at low altitude? I
have never been in a thermal with a Red Tailed Hawk that didn't seem
to be trying to optimize climb rate. Turkey Vultures are a different
story. They seem to be happy with any sloppy thermal technique as
long as they maintain altitude.


Andy

did you ever feel the aileron twitch.. and instinctively know that the
thermal was to your left or right? with most soaring birds (raptors).. those
fingertip feathers tend to move freely.. sensing every movement of the air..
watch one some time..

as for locating thermals?? some believe they can "see the heat".. ever watch
heat rise of pavement.. that "shimmering" as the heat rises.. perhaps our
raptor friends have better vision than we give them credit for

BT


"Uri Saovray" wrote in message
m...
Does anyone have an idea of how the birds know where to thermal? Do
they have a vario? Where is it? Where is its capacity?
Assuming they breath while thermalling, then I doubt they use their
lungs as capacity... or maybe they stop and sense the air coming out
their noses.
Just wondering...

Uri 4XGJC

(Andy Durbin) wrote in message
. com...
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:aa4Fc.11095$7t3.8707@attbi_s51...

Most hawks circling low are looking for rodents, not lift.

Bill Daniels


But many times I have shared thermals with Hawks at high altitude.
How did they get there if not by working thermals at low altitude? I
have never been in a thermal with a Red Tailed Hawk that didn't seem
to be trying to optimize climb rate. Turkey Vultures are a different
story. They seem to be happy with any sloppy thermal technique as
long as they maintain altitude.


Andy

Hi,

Does anyone have an idea of how the birds know where to thermal? Do
they have a vario? Where is it?

How about simple inertia?

They may sense the vertical acceleration. Humans do so too,
but they cannot integrate the information well over time. Varios
fix that fault just like attitude indicators fix the problem of
spatial orientation.

birds propably have evolved to work more exactly in this aspect.

Ciao, MM
--
Marian Aldenhövel, Rosenhain 23, 53123 Bonn.
Fon +49 228 624013, Fax +49 228 624031.
http://www.marian-aldenhoevel.de
"Wie trennt man drei Schlampen von zwei Säufern? Cockpittüre zu!"

Darwin would say the ones that didn't thermal too well didn't
survive, didn't reproduce, and simply missed out on some good
airtime for generations to follow. The birds that acquired the
insight to locate updrafts gained the same advantage we seek: xc
distance. Soaring birds are usually larger than others, maybe good
thermaling skills means better meals. They still need to survive
winters with fewer, weaker thermals by other means.

gill
www.gillcouto.com


Uri Saovray wrote:
Does anyone have an idea of how the birds know where to thermal? Do
they have a vario? Where is it? Where is its capacity?
Assuming they breath while thermalling, then I doubt they use their
lungs as capacity... or maybe they stop and sense the air coming out
their noses.
Just wondering...

Uri 4XGJC

In article , Uri Saovray
writes
Does anyone have an idea of how the birds know where to thermal? Do
they have a vario? Where is it? Where is its capacity?
Assuming they breath while thermalling, then I doubt they use their
lungs as capacity... or maybe they stop and sense the air coming out
their noses.
Just wondering...

Uri 4XGJC

Its a long time since I did any comparative anatomy, but I believe many
birds have air filled cavities in some of their bones.

While on the subject of birds using thermals, the German expedition to
the Andes (1937) decided to bring some raptors birds back to Germany,
the idea being they would find thermals for them. During the voyage back
they were of course kept in cages and fed by the crew. And everyone
else.

When the ship docked in Bremen, the birds had got so heavy they couldn't
get airborne.

From a biography of Hanna Reich.
--
Mike Lindsay

It's a well known fact that birds bones are very light and filled with
holes, just like we have sinuses in our head bones. I've pondered how birds
might sense rate of climb many times and I now hold the view that they sense
it via the cavities in their bones - this would provide them with a very
sensitive variometer, the capacity being automatically incorporated so to
speak.

I'm also convinced that birds soar for pleasure as well as because they
might have to (e.g. Pelicans soar when they are migrating and follow similar
climb/glide patterns to us).

I once observed a seagull from the restaurant at the top of the OMPI
building in Geneva - a seagull was already soaring near the ITU building
when suddenly another shot past the window in a fast glide headed straight
for a point below the other seagull, when it got there it pulled up into the
climb underneath the other gull turning in the same direction. Obviously
his/her CSI (Chief Seagull Instructor) had made the point about proper
thermal entry.

Rgds,

Derrick Steed
Does anyone have an idea of how the birds know where to thermal? Do
they have a vario? Where is it? Where is its capacity?
Assuming they breath while thermalling, then I doubt they use their
lungs as capacity... or maybe they stop and sense the air coming out
their noses.
Just wondering...

Uri 4XGJC

(Andy Durbin) wrote in
message
news:...
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message news:...

Most hawks circling low are looking for rodents, not lift.

Bill Daniels


But many times I have shared thermals with Hawks at high altitude.
How did they get there if not by working thermals at low altitude? I
have never been in a thermal with a Red Tailed Hawk that didn't seem
to be trying to optimize climb rate. Turkey Vultures are a different
story. They seem to be happy with any sloppy thermal technique as
long as they maintain altitude.


Andy