Nimbus 4DT accident 31 July 2000 in Spain.

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:23:05 UTC, Don Johnstone
wrote:

: I know we are getting off the original thread but winch
: launching holds no fear for me.

It bleeding terrifies me - but I think that's pretty healthy!

I spend quite a lot of time each year introducing children to the joys
of soldering. After I have explained how hot the iron is, how
important it is not to touch the metal bits, and so on, I ask if
anyone is scared. A few timid hands always go up - at which point I
say "Well done! You've been listening - there are some things in life
which it is right to be scared of, and soldering is one of them".

"Anything to do with aviation, and especially winch launching" is one
of the others, I suggest!

Ian

--

At 21:42 22 June 2005, Stefan wrote:
M B wrote:

In my experience, I have seen and been a part of confusion
in
the cockpit. One pilot is saying one thing and the
other is
contradicting it. I've also had both pilots on the
controls at the same time, with opposite pressures
applied.

I'm more and more, well, surprized, what you have been
experiencing
while flying. I've never seen, even less been part
of such a thing.

Quite common in US accident reports, especially among
very experienced pilots. Airline black box transcripts
almost always
show there was some CRM problem that contributed to
a difficulty. I've seen CRM miscommunications result
in less-than-perfect results several times with others,
too.
Most commonly I've seen it when instructors initiate
emergency procedures as a 'surprise.' Gear-up landing,
and a
landout when too far from the end of the runway on
a
'rope break' procedure where the student was too slow
reacting.

As pilots become more skilled, the reasons for accidents
seem to shift from pure stick skill issues to
other things, particularly CRM. I would guess that
if there
was a black box in every two-seat glider accident,
some CRM problem would be listed as contributing.

Communicate before the flight, define the roles and
adhere to it. Who
will do what? Who will fly in an emergency? Communicate
during the
flight, and do so clearly.

Excellent, excellent advice. Something I think that
is not
done formally very often in some places...


And, you may ask, if the other pilot is doing something
I don't like?
Well, if I don't trust the other pilot, I won't fly
with him. If he
doesn't trust me, I don't want him to fly with me.
Simple as that, very
basic CRM stuff. (It needn't be offensive when I say
I don't like his
way of flying, because I'm not implying that he's a
bad pilot, I'm just
saying our styles are incompatible.)

The trouble is: you have to fly with him once to find
out.
Hopefully it is a benign flight...


I'm surprized that, as it seems, you can become an
instructor in the USA
without knowing such basic stuff.

You're not supposed to be able to. CRM is an emphasis

area for all practical tests for all pilot ratings
in the USA.

However, there are something like 14 'emphasis areas'
so
it ends up getting buried, and trivially tested.

And despite the test standards being very specific
in the
'you have the controls' phrase for exchanging controls,

I've had examiners say 'I've got the airplane' and
have
students say other arcane phrases, and sometimes just
release all of the controls completely in a challenging
situation,
with no words at all!

So now I rehearse the 'you have the controls' stuff

for the first flight with everyone, even other instructors!
It seems funny (they should know that, right?) but
I haven't had problems since.

It seems like a lot of non-instructors fly together
in two-seaters,
and don't formalize the CRM stuff. And hey, what are
you gonna
do if one is more experienced than the other? If the
newbie is flying and gets into an emergency, have the
more experienced guy take over? Kind of hard to do
in a split second.

Another post suggested that one of these Nimbus accidents
may have been from one guy doing one thing and the
other guy doing something else unexpected. I wouldn't
be surprised.

My point here is that I think CRM is maybe a bigger
factor in a
lot of 2-seat accidents than the reports show. The
stuff you
talk about as being obvious isn't taught and tested
as
textbook here in the USA, or perhaps just turns into
one among many 'emphasis areas.'

It sounds like in your training this recieved more
emphasis.
Was that formally required for license, or was that
just
informal common-sense? In the USA, in our
Glider Flying Handbook, there isn't anything at all
that I am aware of which talks about tandem seating
and sticks and
dangers of simultaneous pressures on dual controls/CRM
brief before takeoff.

This is a bit of a training gap, in my opinion...



Stefan

Mark J. Boyd

M B wrote:

At 21:42 22 June 2005, Stefan wrote:
M B wrote:

In my experience, I have seen and been a part of confusion
in
the cockpit. One pilot is saying one thing and the
other is
contradicting it. I've also had both pilots on the
controls at the same time, with opposite pressures
applied.

I'm more and more, well, surprized, what you have been
experiencing
while flying. I've never seen, even less been part
of such a thing.

Quite common in US accident reports, especially among
very experienced pilots. Airline black box transcripts
almost always
show there was some CRM problem that contributed to
a difficulty. I've seen CRM miscommunications result
in less-than-perfect results several times with others,
too.
Most commonly I've seen it when instructors initiate
emergency procedures as a 'surprise.' Gear-up landing,
and a
landout when too far from the end of the runway on
a
'rope break' procedure where the student was too slow
reacting.

As pilots become more skilled, the reasons for accidents
seem to shift from pure stick skill issues to
other things, particularly CRM. I would guess that
if there
was a black box in every two-seat glider accident,
some CRM problem would be listed as contributing.

Communicate before the flight, define the roles and
adhere to it. Who
will do what? Who will fly in an emergency? Communicate
during the
flight, and do so clearly.

Excellent, excellent advice. Something I think that
is not
done formally very often in some places...


And, you may ask, if the other pilot is doing something
I don't like?
Well, if I don't trust the other pilot, I won't fly
with him. If he
doesn't trust me, I don't want him to fly with me.
Simple as that, very
basic CRM stuff. (It needn't be offensive when I say
I don't like his
way of flying, because I'm not implying that he's a
bad pilot, I'm just
saying our styles are incompatible.)

The trouble is: you have to fly with him once to find
out.
Hopefully it is a benign flight...


I'm surprized that, as it seems, you can become an
instructor in the USA
without knowing such basic stuff.

You're not supposed to be able to. CRM is an emphasis

area for all practical tests for all pilot ratings
in the USA.

However, there are something like 14 'emphasis areas'
so
it ends up getting buried, and trivially tested.

And despite the test standards being very specific
in the
'you have the controls' phrase for exchanging controls,

I've had examiners say 'I've got the airplane' and
have
students say other arcane phrases, and sometimes just
release all of the controls completely in a challenging
situation,
with no words at all!

So now I rehearse the 'you have the controls' stuff

for the first flight with everyone, even other instructors!
It seems funny (they should know that, right?) but
I haven't had problems since.

When I learned in the UK, the practice was

Statement: "You have control"
Response: "I have control"

or

Statement: "I have control" (usually instructor)
Response: "You have control"

It's clear and there is no confusion. Why add a fourth word? Since
presumably if you have the controls, you also have control of the aircraft.
Personally I think it should be the standard between instructor and student
and between pilots flying dual. When I fly dual with another pilot or with
a passenger that might get the stick for a while, I brief this during
pre-flight checks and reiterate it before changing control.

At my club we do something similar with winch launch radio signals during
the launch process. Nothing else is accepted.

"Up slack, up slack, up slack"
"Go, go, go"
"Stop, stop, stop"

I have known of an instructor and tow pilot flying together where no one was
in control and the glider exceeded VNe slightly in a dive and was recovered
gently once the situation was realized. It could have ended otherwise.

Frank

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

Statement: "You have control"
Response: "I have control"

I have known of an instructor and tow pilot flying together where no one was
in control and the glider exceeded VNe slightly in a dive and was recovered
gently once the situation was realized. It could have ended otherwise.

The instructors of my club were pretty hardcore with that "my controls /
your controls" thing. I would never have thought somebody would not do
so... until:

Until I got my introduction into mountain soaring. Not a club thing, so
the instructors were unknown to me. Once during a flight, the instructor
demonstrated something, I forgot what. Anyway, after the demonstration,
we flew along gently and quietly. After a while, he made a shallow turn
away from the mountain into the valley. "What is he doing?" I asked
myself, waiting for his explanation. He didn't explain anything, but
after a while, he suddenly asked: Why are you flying over the valley?
Turned out, neither of us had the controls, both thinking the other was
flying. So much for a well trimmed glider.

I've learnt that lesson.

Stefan

Just to add to what Bill has said, the really low launch
failure 100 is one of the minor problem areas. If
the launch is flown correctly it can be quite safely
handled. The good point is, as Bill has pointed out
that there is a large amount of airfield still in front
of you. The bad news is that by the time the nose has
been lowered the airspeed may be below the minimum
allowed for the deployment of airbrakes. It may not
be possible to lower the nose any further to increase
the speed because of the proximity to the ground and
therefore a touchdown has to be achieved without using
airbrake. Patience is required as most modern gliders
float a long way even at 50 kts in ground effect. (Grob
103 will travel the length of the 10000ft runway at
Marham from 20ft/60kts) Simulating a launch failure
at this height is not recomended as there is a real
danger that the drogue will inflate as the winch driver
cuts the power and drape itself over the cockpit. The
good news is that such breaks are rare as the strain
on the cable is reducing before increasing again. The
procedure can be simulated by carrying out a faster
than normal approach, pulling up and closing the airbrakes
and then recovering from that situation which puts
the glider in the same situation as a low break but
without the cable in the way.


At 04:30 28 June 2005, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Kilo Charlie' wrote in message
news:9D3we.3579$Qo.3471@fed1read01...
Your input re winch launches is appreciated Bill....esp
for those of us
that
have never done one!

Please don't take this as a criticism of winch launches
but through this
thread there has not been any mention of what happens
at the critical low
level altitude when the cable breaks. There is clearly
also a zone of
real
problems with aerotows too.....esp here in the desert
with few, if any
landing options straight ahead. What do you guys
teach re breaks at 100
feet? It seems like landing ahead would be good but
how much altitude
does
it take to regain the necessary speed to be able to
control the glider for
landing when at a high angle of attack? Sorry if
this is too obvious for
those of you that do it all the time!

Casey


Thanks, Casey.

The climb profile must be such that a safe recovery
with generous margins be
possible from any height that a cable break occurs.
Safety is the product
of airspeed, altitude and attitude - and good training.

If the break happens at 100 feet, then 90%+ of the
runway lies ahead to
receive the glider. At 100 feet, the glider will have
full climb airspeed,
approx. 60 knots, but then pitch attitude will only
be 20 - 30 degrees. A
prompt, gentle pushover to a glide at approach airspeed
is all that is
needed to land straight ahead.

If the break occurs higher, say 300 - 400 feet, then
the straight ahead
landing is still possible with spoilers but a tight
360 pattern is also
possible. The two options overlap by a good amount
of height depending on
the airfield. At this height, the climb attitude will
be about 45 degrees
nose up (although from the cockpit it will feel like
60 degrees) so a more
aggressive pushover is needed.

All these situations will be practiced over and over
until the instructor
feels the student reacts instinctively and correctly
to each. The student
must firmly push the nose down until the airspeed is
observed to be at a
safe value and increasing before establishing a glide
for a straight ahead
landing or a turn for an abbreviated pattern.

I must admit that winch launch LOOKS scary and FEELS
scary to the
uninitiated but the procedures worked out over literally
tens of millions of
launches in Europe and elsewhere make it actually safer
than air tow.

As for releasing over the winch instead of wherever
the tow plane takes you,
I see by looking at a lot of On-Line Contest IGC files,
that most air tow
releases happen within a mile of the takeoff point
and the glider is rarely
in a thermal at release but must glide around looking
for one just like with
a winch launch. If you don't find a thermal, a winch
re-light will cost you
less than $10.

The latest European winches are getting even heavy
gliders to over 1000
meters AGL so finding lift shouldn't be a problem.

Bill Daniels

Good comments, Don.

If the break occurs between the winch and drogue the 'chute will collapse
and pass harmlessly below the glider, releasing automatically from the
glider in most cases.

If the break is between the glider and drogue, (weak link failure) then the
drogue will be open as long as the winch driver maintains power. In this
case, the winch driver is the key. My driving technique is to cut the
throttle and let the drogue collapse and drop to the ground. Comments?

The worst case that is very rarely seen is that somehow the glider gets in
front of the drogue and it overtakes the glider from behind. This is the
equivalent of getting an air tow rope entangled with the glider. Both are
equally rare. This is why once the drogue is on the ground, the winch
driver must not move the cable until he hears that it is safe to do so.

It is very important to point out that almost all the cable breaks were
using the old steel wire. The new Dyneema winch cables rarely break. The
last I heard, Aero Club Landau in Germany had more than 4000 launches on
their 'plastic' cable without a single break. ACL is also getting more than
1200 meters AGL with their winch launches.

Bill Daniels

The pilot is trained not to land on the wire if at all possible.
"Don Johnstone" wrote in
message ...
Just to add to what Bill has said, the really low launch
failure 100 is one of the minor problem areas. If
the launch is flown correctly it can be quite safely
handled. The good point is, as Bill has pointed out
that there is a large amount of airfield still in front
of you. The bad news is that by the time the nose has
been lowered the airspeed may be below the minimum
allowed for the deployment of airbrakes. It may not
be possible to lower the nose any further to increase
the speed because of the proximity to the ground and
therefore a touchdown has to be achieved without using
airbrake. Patience is required as most modern gliders
float a long way even at 50 kts in ground effect. (Grob
103 will travel the length of the 10000ft runway at
Marham from 20ft/60kts) Simulating a launch failure
at this height is not recomended as there is a real
danger that the drogue will inflate as the winch driver
cuts the power and drape itself over the cockpit. The
good news is that such breaks are rare as the strain
on the cable is reducing before increasing again. The
procedure can be simulated by carrying out a faster
than normal approach, pulling up and closing the airbrakes
and then recovering from that situation which puts
the glider in the same situation as a low break but
without the cable in the way.


At 04:30 28 June 2005, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Kilo Charlie' wrote in message
news:9D3we.3579$Qo.3471@fed1read01...
Your input re winch launches is appreciated Bill....esp
for those of us
that
have never done one!

Please don't take this as a criticism of winch launches
but through this
thread there has not been any mention of what happens
at the critical low
level altitude when the cable breaks. There is clearly
also a zone of
real
problems with aerotows too.....esp here in the desert
with few, if any
landing options straight ahead. What do you guys
teach re breaks at 100
feet? It seems like landing ahead would be good but
how much altitude
does
it take to regain the necessary speed to be able to
control the glider for
landing when at a high angle of attack? Sorry if
this is too obvious for
those of you that do it all the time!

Casey


Thanks, Casey.

The climb profile must be such that a safe recovery
with generous margins be
possible from any height that a cable break occurs.
Safety is the product
of airspeed, altitude and attitude - and good training.

If the break happens at 100 feet, then 90%+ of the
runway lies ahead to
receive the glider. At 100 feet, the glider will have
full climb airspeed,
approx. 60 knots, but then pitch attitude will only
be 20 - 30 degrees. A
prompt, gentle pushover to a glide at approach airspeed
is all that is
needed to land straight ahead.

If the break occurs higher, say 300 - 400 feet, then
the straight ahead
landing is still possible with spoilers but a tight
360 pattern is also
possible. The two options overlap by a good amount
of height depending on
the airfield. At this height, the climb attitude will
be about 45 degrees
nose up (although from the cockpit it will feel like
60 degrees) so a more
aggressive pushover is needed.

All these situations will be practiced over and over
until the instructor
feels the student reacts instinctively and correctly
to each. The student
must firmly push the nose down until the airspeed is
observed to be at a
safe value and increasing before establishing a glide
for a straight ahead
landing or a turn for an abbreviated pattern.

I must admit that winch launch LOOKS scary and FEELS
scary to the
uninitiated but the procedures worked out over literally
tens of millions of
launches in Europe and elsewhere make it actually safer
than air tow.

As for releasing over the winch instead of wherever
the tow plane takes you,
I see by looking at a lot of On-Line Contest IGC files,
that most air tow
releases happen within a mile of the takeoff point
and the glider is rarely
in a thermal at release but must glide around looking
for one just like with
a winch launch. If you don't find a thermal, a winch
re-light will cost you
less than $10.

The latest European winches are getting even heavy
gliders to over 1000
meters AGL so finding lift shouldn't be a problem.

Bill Daniels

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:54:18 -0600, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:

It is very important to point out that almost all the cable breaks were
using the old steel wire. The new Dyneema winch cables rarely break. The
last I heard, Aero Club Landau in Germany had more than 4000 launches on
their 'plastic' cable without a single break. ACL is also getting more than
1200 meters AGL with their winch launches.

Flying on the same airfield as the Landau Aero Club, I'd like to add a
few comments:
- There have been lots of cable breaks with Dyneema ropes now (also of
other Dyneema cable users - these plastic cables are used by many
clubs in Germany now). At the moment my club is not sure if the
Dyneema cable is really cheaper to operate than steel cable on the
long run.
- The number of flights that reached more than 1.000 meters can be
counted on one hand, and required to place glider and winch in areas
that were far away from any runway...





Bye
Andreas

How long is ACL's runway?

Mike Schumann

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
...
Good comments, Don.

If the break occurs between the winch and drogue the 'chute will collapse
and pass harmlessly below the glider, releasing automatically from the
glider in most cases.

If the break is between the glider and drogue, (weak link failure) then
the
drogue will be open as long as the winch driver maintains power. In this
case, the winch driver is the key. My driving technique is to cut the
throttle and let the drogue collapse and drop to the ground. Comments?

The worst case that is very rarely seen is that somehow the glider gets in
front of the drogue and it overtakes the glider from behind. This is the
equivalent of getting an air tow rope entangled with the glider. Both are
equally rare. This is why once the drogue is on the ground, the winch
driver must not move the cable until he hears that it is safe to do so.

It is very important to point out that almost all the cable breaks were
using the old steel wire. The new Dyneema winch cables rarely break. The
last I heard, Aero Club Landau in Germany had more than 4000 launches on
their 'plastic' cable without a single break. ACL is also getting more
than
1200 meters AGL with their winch launches.

Bill Daniels

The pilot is trained not to land on the wire if at all possible.
"Don Johnstone" wrote in
message ...
Just to add to what Bill has said, the really low launch
failure 100 is one of the minor problem areas. If
the launch is flown correctly it can be quite safely
handled. The good point is, as Bill has pointed out
that there is a large amount of airfield still in front
of you. The bad news is that by the time the nose has
been lowered the airspeed may be below the minimum
allowed for the deployment of airbrakes. It may not
be possible to lower the nose any further to increase
the speed because of the proximity to the ground and
therefore a touchdown has to be achieved without using
airbrake. Patience is required as most modern gliders
float a long way even at 50 kts in ground effect. (Grob
103 will travel the length of the 10000ft runway at
Marham from 20ft/60kts) Simulating a launch failure
at this height is not recomended as there is a real
danger that the drogue will inflate as the winch driver
cuts the power and drape itself over the cockpit. The
good news is that such breaks are rare as the strain
on the cable is reducing before increasing again. The
procedure can be simulated by carrying out a faster
than normal approach, pulling up and closing the airbrakes
and then recovering from that situation which puts
the glider in the same situation as a low break but
without the cable in the way.


At 04:30 28 June 2005, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Kilo Charlie' wrote in message
news:9D3we.3579$Qo.3471@fed1read01...
Your input re winch launches is appreciated Bill....esp
for those of us
that
have never done one!

Please don't take this as a criticism of winch launches
but through this
thread there has not been any mention of what happens
at the critical low
level altitude when the cable breaks. There is clearly
also a zone of
real
problems with aerotows too.....esp here in the desert
with few, if any
landing options straight ahead. What do you guys
teach re breaks at 100
feet? It seems like landing ahead would be good but
how much altitude
does
it take to regain the necessary speed to be able to
control the glider for
landing when at a high angle of attack? Sorry if
this is too obvious for
those of you that do it all the time!

Casey


Thanks, Casey.

The climb profile must be such that a safe recovery
with generous margins be
possible from any height that a cable break occurs.
Safety is the product
of airspeed, altitude and attitude - and good training.

If the break happens at 100 feet, then 90%+ of the
runway lies ahead to
receive the glider. At 100 feet, the glider will have
full climb airspeed,
approx. 60 knots, but then pitch attitude will only
be 20 - 30 degrees. A
prompt, gentle pushover to a glide at approach airspeed
is all that is
needed to land straight ahead.

If the break occurs higher, say 300 - 400 feet, then
the straight ahead
landing is still possible with spoilers but a tight
360 pattern is also
possible. The two options overlap by a good amount
of height depending on
the airfield. At this height, the climb attitude will
be about 45 degrees
nose up (although from the cockpit it will feel like
60 degrees) so a more
aggressive pushover is needed.

All these situations will be practiced over and over
until the instructor
feels the student reacts instinctively and correctly
to each. The student
must firmly push the nose down until the airspeed is
observed to be at a
safe value and increasing before establishing a glide
for a straight ahead
landing or a turn for an abbreviated pattern.

I must admit that winch launch LOOKS scary and FEELS
scary to the
uninitiated but the procedures worked out over literally
tens of millions of
launches in Europe and elsewhere make it actually safer
than air tow.

As for releasing over the winch instead of wherever
the tow plane takes you,
I see by looking at a lot of On-Line Contest IGC files,
that most air tow
releases happen within a mile of the takeoff point
and the glider is rarely
in a thermal at release but must glide around looking
for one just like with
a winch launch. If you don't find a thermal, a winch
re-light will cost you
less than $10.

The latest European winches are getting even heavy
gliders to over 1000
meters AGL so finding lift shouldn't be a problem.

Bill Daniels

"Mike Schumann" wrote in message
hlink.net...
How long is ACL's runway?

I'm not sure but I've heard the figure of 2000 meters.

If you want to see the operation, go to this site and download a movie:
http://www.gliding4life.com/

Nistal Wloczysiak is a young genius with a camera.

Bill Daniels

At 14:36 27 June 2005, wrote:
I missed your last paragraph. As I noted to Andreas,
it's all a matter
of what you are used to. A 200 foot rope break in
the absence of
strong winds or turbulence is completely benign, at
least for me,
having done hundreds of them.

What I'm finding interesting is the need to make fairly
dramatic
motions of the controls as part of a cable break recovery.
So again,
I'll flirt with the term aerobatic, not as a maneveur
designed to
thrill and excite and audience or a passenger, but
as a way to
differentiate use of the controls given these circumstances.

Even if you fail to observe the moment the rope breaks
on aerotow, and
only become aware of it as you fail to maintain position
behind the tow
plane, use of the controls is not nearly so dramatic
as post cable
break. Nor, apparently, quite as critical. Though
I think we can both
agree that they each represent real emergencies demanding
preplanned
action.


Under no stretch of the imagination can a winch launch
be considered aerobatic. I don't consider that you
need to make any dramatic movements of the controls
to cope with a cable break, you just need to react
promptly by lowering the nose to the approach attitude
and waiting until the approach speed/normal flying
speed is attained before turning. There is nothing
dramatic about the movement of the stick. I find it
hard to believe (I don't believe it) that you were
not warned about turning before attaining the approach
speed. There is nothing complicated about winch launching,
it's not rocket science, you just need more experience
of it.