Procedure for calculating weight and balance

New_CFI wrote:

ok, then drive. or if your just intrested in seeing the world from
above, fly a balloon.


Save yourself the headache. He has no interest in seeing the world in
any way other than in simulation.

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote

The POH will list the arms for each seat, fuel, oil, baggage, etc.

Are you sure you want to be answering this putz? I beg of you;
reconsider.
--
Jim in NC

I think its you who should not get answers.
This is a good thread

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote

He sounds like a precocious 12-year-old, so I can cut him some slack.

Sorry to hear that. You have been drawn in by the fact that some of his
questions are reasonable, while his reactions are entirely unreasonable.

Let someone else ask reasonable questions. His presence here is only
detrimental.
--
Jim in NC

His questions are better than any thing you have asked.
Let it be. What are you like 105.

STFU and take notes from the people here that know. If the latter, well,
take a hike.

Heh Heh good one.. I refuse to even respond to MXidiot but I am sure
that he prefers neutral trim for two reasons:

1. Because his game has no way of imposing or relieving control wheel
pressures...
2. Because he has already shown that he really doesn't know WTF the trim
does in real airplanes...

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ UMP

Mxsmanic wrote:
In a real aircraft, trim is used to deflect a larger control surface,
so that control pressures are not required to deflect it. The control
surface moves, which means it moves closer to one stop and further
from the other. This reduces remaining control authority in the
direction of the former, and extends it in the direction of the
latter.

Sigh... No, they are not. By definition, trim systems (tabs, springs,
all-moving surfaces, moving horizontal tails, etc.) are used BY ALL
AIRCRAFT to relieve control pressures at the trim airspeed, and
contribute to stability by establishing the speed that the aircraft
will attempt to return to after a deviation from that trim airspeed.
Trim for 90 knots, and the plane will stay at 90 knots hands off as
long as it isn't disturbed in roll. Pull the nose up and slow to 60
knots, then let go of the stick, the plane will gently nose down,
accelerate past 90, then slowly pitch back up, repeating the process
until it's back at the trim speed. Same thing happens in reverse if
you accelerate by pushing then letting go of the stick. You do have to
keep the wings level on most planes, however, since roll stability is
usually the weakest axis (yaw is usually the strongest).

What you thinking about are servo tabs, spring tabs, spades, etc.
These are aerodynamic devices for reducing the force needed to move the
control surface away from the trim position, especially at high
airspeeds. Replaced on modern heavy/fast aircraft with irreversible
power controls (which still need a trim system, by the way, in order to
set the trim speed). Not uncommon to see seperate spring tabs and trim
tabs on the ailerons of older, large airplanes.

The problem with "simulated" flying using a spring-centered joystick
(or wheel, like the nice CH ones) is that they are always fighting
their centering springs. Therefore, in order to simulate how a real
trim works, they actually move the control surface "neutral point".
And yes, that may decrease the remaining control authority available.
BUT THIS IS NOT HOW A REAL AIRCRAFT WORKS! For MSFS to replicate how
trim really works on your Baron, it would have to move the stick/wheel
while you move the trim in the simulation (not the phyical trim wheels
some joysticks (like CH) have).

Unfortunately, I'm only interested in powered flight.

Who says sailplanes aren't powered? Mine is primarily solar powered,
with occasional hydrocarbon assist for takeoffs only.

Kirk
66

"TxSrv" wrote

A trim tab does not necessarily "interfere" with the flow of air over a
control surface. You need to read Hoerner's books.

I would be satisfied with ANY books.

Really everyone; it is time to stop making suggestions to MX to read this,
take a lesson, google for that, or just to jump his **** for being a
ignorant, immature, argumentative, (add several more of your favorite
adjectives _ _ _ _ _ here ), trolling dork.

Let's take it to the next level, now. The only suggestion that should be
made is to warn a newcomer of MX's unique status, and suggest to them and
others that no response is the best response.

In other words, no hitting "reply to group," in any circumstances.

E-Mail him off list, if you must, but I think even that is
counter-productive.

Agreed?

writes:

Sigh... No, they are not. By definition, trim systems (tabs, springs,
all-moving surfaces, moving horizontal tails, etc.) are used BY ALL
AIRCRAFT to relieve control pressures at the trim airspeed ...

And they generally do that by moving the control surface.

What you thinking about are servo tabs, spring tabs, spades, etc.
These are aerodynamic devices for reducing the force needed to move the
control surface away from the trim position, especially at high
airspeeds.

No, I'm thinking of the trim tabs themselves. When you adjust trim,
the tabs move, and deflect the control surface in the opposite
direction of their movement--thus relieving you of the effort required
to move those control surfaces. They relieve control pressures by
moving the control surfaces for you, but the control surfaces _do_
move.

The problem with "simulated" flying using a spring-centered joystick
(or wheel, like the nice CH ones) is that they are always fighting
their centering springs. Therefore, in order to simulate how a real
trim works, they actually move the control surface "neutral point".
And yes, that may decrease the remaining control authority available.
BUT THIS IS NOT HOW A REAL AIRCRAFT WORKS! For MSFS to replicate how
trim really works on your Baron, it would have to move the stick/wheel
while you move the trim in the simulation (not the phyical trim wheels
some joysticks (like CH) have).

The simulation is close enough for most purposes, given that this
doesn't even work the same way on all real aircraft.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Oh, by the way, many aircraft do not have any trim tabs at all - most
gliders use springs in the control circuit, J-3 Cubs move the
horizontal stabilizer, the F-4 I used to fly changed the neutral
position of the whole flying tail, etc...

Thanks, presumably on behalf of many, for an excellent overview.

BTW, in the case of the fully trimming stab on the J-3 Cub, DC-9, and some
others; as well as the fully trimming tail of the F-4, Mooney M20, and
others; it does seem hypothetically possible that the control authority
could be influenced--but that would be a side effect of obtaining a design
goal, rather than a feature in itself, and certainly outside of any area of
expertise which I might have.

Peter

No, I'm thinking of the trim tabs themselves. When you adjust trim,
the tabs move, and deflect the control surface in the opposite
direction of their movement--thus relieving you of the effort required
to move those control surfaces. They relieve control pressures by
moving the control surfaces for you, but the control surfaces _do_
move.

Than is the reverse of the manner in which trim is used--and a guaranteed
way to determine the full extent of foul language which your instructor may
have learned during his lifetime!

The accepted standard procedure is to fly the airplan with its primary
flight controls, and use the trim to reduce/eliminate the required control
pressure. Therefore, any movement of the control surfaces is ignored--there
will be none when the primary controls are simply biased with springs, very
little when there are trim tabs, and more when there is a fully trimming
stabilizer. However, if the amount is signifcand, you were badly out of
trim in the first place--which is another great way to keep your instructor
excited and talkative...

BTW, in calm air, it is possible to fly by use of the trim--although not
very well. Several crews have survived primary control failures on aircraft
which they could not abandon in flight, and the aircraft was saved as well
on at least one occasion. However, there is NO reason for a sane person to
practice that, even in a simulator, unless he has reason to suppose that he
might be the victim of such a failure.

Peter

Mxsmanic wrote:

Thomas Borchert writes:


Why would "neutral trim" be important?


It allows for maximum control movement in both directions.



The trim doesn't affect the total control movements one iota.


Any trim adjustment has an effect on the remaining elevator authority
beyond the trimmed position.

It does no such thing.